365 | Understanding How Personal Development and Attachment Styles Can Nurture Healthy Relationships with Thais Gibson

[00:00:06] Welcome to The Optimal Body Podcast. I'm Dr. Jen. And I'm Dr. Dom. And we are doctors of physical therapy, bringing you the body tips and physical therapy pearls of wisdom to help you begin to understand your body, relieve your pains

[00:00:17] and restrictions, and answer your questions. Along with expert guests, our goal of The Optimal Body Podcast is really to help you discover what optimal means within your own body. Let's dive in. Exciting news. We just added a warm up and cool down plan to Jen Health

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[00:03:14] get in now this week so you get the freebies included. Excited for this next guest because we're going to be diving into personal development and we haven't talked about that much with guests

[00:03:23] before. So we have Thais Gibson who is a best-selling author and has a PhD and over 13 certifications in modalities such as CBT, NLP, somatic experiencing, internal family systems, and shadow work. She has nearly a decade of experience running a successful private practice and engaging with over 30,000

[00:03:44] clients. This diverse background has culminated in creating Gibson Integrated Attachment Theory which is an innovative framework uniting traditional attachment theory, developmental psychology insights, and potent subconscious reprogramming techniques. These techniques are woven throughout the course material within the personal development school, taught within their

[00:04:04] innovative coach training program, and in her most recent book Learning Love. The personal development school was created by Thais Gibson when her private practice got fully booked with a two-year waitlist. It expanded quickly to thousands of members and is in over 115 countries and counting.

[00:04:21] The school has over 38 million views on social media. In surveys, members have reported a 95% satisfaction rate and an 88.7% improvement in their relationships. So she really has walked the walk. She's worked with so, so many people and I'm super excited to dive into her expertise.

[00:04:40] Thais, thank you so much for taking some time to chat with us this morning. I'm excited for this one because we haven't really discussed the personal development, personal growth space. I know we're going to dive into attachment styles, relationships, everything about all those topics.

[00:04:54] So excited to really kind of dig into your expertise today. Excited to be here with you guys. Thank you so much for having me. Now, when someone hears personal development, I think the mind goes a few different places. Like

[00:05:08] I know for some family members on my side, it could be like, oh, it's culty or it's... I mean, there's so many documentaries too that are out now that kind of lead into like the cult kind

[00:05:18] of dimension. So how can you explain personal development and its value in what it is and what it could provide people? That's such a great question. I think personal development really starts with us introspecting and it's actually about building

[00:05:34] a relationship to ourselves, recognizing our own patterns, recognizing why we do the things that we do and really getting to root cause. And I think through that, that's where the seeds are

[00:05:44] planted for transformation. And I would actually say that truly one of the key signs to look out for if somebody is sort of teaching or discussing things about personal development, if they're trying to make it more about what they believe you should be doing rather than you individuating

[00:05:59] and actually introspecting and finding those patterns within yourself and seeing what you can do next, that's where I think it gets culty. And I think that that's the biggest red flag. Like we know cults basically discourage individuation, but I think true personal

[00:06:13] development is actually the opposite. It's more about us being able to dig deep, start understanding ourselves, self-observing, and then working to break through things that we don't like that are patterns in our lives so that we can really achieve our highest potential.

[00:06:27] Now, I think that's so valuable about like just that introspection. And I think it's something that not enough people do often. And like, why do you think that is? Why do you think we just

[00:06:36] kind of get on this autopilot mode and ignore that aspect of really like looking inward and discussing with ourselves what we actually need to feel fulfilled in life? I know something you like to talk about is emotional patterning or emotional patterns

[00:06:52] that people get in. And it's just kind of this autopilot where we live through life without doing that self-reflection. Exactly. So, I think you really hit the nail on the head, which is that...

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[00:08:19] optimal for 20% off your first order. All right, let's get back into the interview. We tend to go through life and we're programmed. So, we go through life and we are conditioned and we basically get all of our neural circuitry through our conditioned pattern. So,

[00:08:35] whatever we're exposed to in our early childhood especially, but really throughout all of life because we do have neuroplasticity, fires and wires are neural pathways. So, if we are repeatedly exposed for example to very critical parents, we may over and over again come to feel and believe

[00:08:50] that okay I am not good enough. And then that belief will be programmed into our subconscious mind. And what happens from there is our conscious mind is responsible for roughly three to five percent of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions and actions. Our subconscious and unconscious mind

[00:09:07] collectively are responsible for 95 to 97 percent of our beliefs, thoughts, emotions and actions. So, really unless we are starting to self-observe what those subconscious patterns are, what those autopilot patterns are and working to recondition those things, we're basically just the product

[00:09:23] of nature plus nurture. We're basically the product of our genetics and our environment. But I think that when we start to self-observe and become more self-aware, we get to look at well

[00:09:33] what doesn't serve us in our conditioning? What patterns do we not want to feel good enough or do we not want to feel afraid of abandonment all the time? Or if we grew up with trust issues or fears

[00:09:44] around really being vulnerable, like whatever fears we're holding on to, yes they're just going to be our autopilot programs until we self-observe and work to recondition what's not serving us. And I think that that's one of the crucial differences to understand is that we're just going through

[00:10:00] the motions of whatever our programming is until we start doing some of that work. So, does it really come from needing to look back into our childhood and having to kind of

[00:10:12] dig in and start to assess what happened and how I grew up? Where do we even start that? Is it going to therapy one-on-one? Is it being exposed to a greater community? Where do you recommend

[00:10:29] people start? Okay, so this is a great question. So, I have spent about the first 10 years of my career in client practice. I did roughly 18,000 client sessions. I saw a ton of people for a very

[00:10:41] long time. And then I moved into these online programs and sort of seeing people in a different way. And what I found over and over again is that as somebody who also has a background in hypnosis,

[00:10:50] did a good chunk of time in hypnotherapy. And I was really interested in about how the subconscious works and how we can really create transformation fast. Like why it doesn't have to be years and

[00:11:00] years and how can we really get to the root of understanding our subconscious mind if it's really the one running the show for us? And what I found is that it's less valuable, honestly,

[00:11:10] to go back and try to unpack every childhood memory and every experience. What's most valuable and efficient is to look at what's not serving me right now. So, if I'm going through, for example,

[00:11:22] a relationship and let's say I have this huge fear of abandonment or huge fear of being trapped or whatever it might be, these sort of typical relationship fears people often have. Whatever fear it is, whether it's in relationship, whether it's in the workplace, if I can recognize, okay,

[00:11:37] this is what's stopping me, this is creating a glass ceiling in my life right now, then we can actually just do reprogramming work and reconditioning work. And I'm happy to share tools

[00:11:46] for that, but we can do reconditioning work now. It can be useful to have context like, oh, I can see how this came from childhood and it can give us that sense of certainty and understanding.

[00:11:58] But I find that self-observation when we do this in the immediate present moment and then we work to rewire the programs that are not working for us currently, that's how we fast track to success because sometimes we can have really challenging childhood memories that we've adapted through,

[00:12:14] that we've actually come out stronger because of. And so I don't think we have to go unpack everything all the time. I actually think that that can be us spinning our wheels sometimes.

[00:12:24] And in particular, I have a tiny bone to pick with the Western world of traditional talk therapy, because when you look at how neuroscience takes place, right? When we look at, if we go and rehash

[00:12:36] old memories all the time, if we're not actively reconditioning the core wounds associated with them or the fears or limiting beliefs we have associated there, then what we're doing is we're firing and wiring those same old emotional patterns, which is actually just creating

[00:12:50] stronger neural pathways over time. And so if we go back in and we say, oh my gosh, a childhood at five years old, I was abandoned. It's not to say that we shouldn't acknowledge our feelings

[00:12:59] around that, but if we just keep talking about the same stories over and over again, repetition, emotion, and imagery are the three ingredients to fire and wire new neural networks. And so we're actually just reinforcing this fear of abandonment when we do that,

[00:13:12] rather than focusing on what's not serving us now. How can we reprogram or recondition this in the present? And yes, it can be useful and interesting to link back and get context for things, but it can also be limiting if we're not doing that active reconditioning work.

[00:13:27] That's a great perspective and something I don't think I've really heard before, but it makes so much sense so that you're not staying stuck exactly like you said. And I see

[00:13:37] how that loop can happen. And I love the nervous system references because I kind of call it a nervous system rut. You literally dig yourself into this rut and it's kind of like how our rivers

[00:13:48] form. The more that you pass the same water down the same path, you dig deeper and deeper and deeper and it just makes it more and more difficult to get out of that neural pathway that you've

[00:13:59] cemented in. And so for somebody who's listening who may not have done a lot of this introspection or personal development, are there practices or exercises they can do on their own to start

[00:14:14] listing out and figuring out, okay, here are some of the things going on in my life, which of them aren't serving me? Is there any tool that you can give people listening to just start?

[00:14:23] Absolutely. So one of the best ways I find to do this is that we can start by looking at the seven areas of our life. So I'll list them out kind of slowly. So we have career, financial, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, and relationships. And relationships can kind of

[00:14:38] be broken down into friends, family, and romantic relationships. And so what we do is we first start by just looking at, well, what area of our lives are we focusing on? So where are our goals? And I

[00:14:47] think it's great to have minor goals in all areas for upkeep purposes, but I think it's really important. Like every person usually has a major area of life they're focusing on, sometimes two or

[00:14:56] more. And so we start by looking at, well, what do I really want to create? How do I want to design my life? Do I want a breakthrough in my career? Do I want to break through my relationships or

[00:15:04] with money? And when we start by setting our goals, then we ask ourselves the question, well, why haven't I already achieved this? And usually what happens is we'll be like, oh, I want to make

[00:15:14] X amount more money. Oh, well, there's not enough money to go around. Or, oh, I'm not capable of achieving that level of... And so what happens there is that helps us spit out our limiting

[00:15:24] beliefs. And then one of the very first introductory tools I often give to people for how to actually rewire these limiting beliefs, because trust me, they are like our glass ceiling in life. What happens is because of how the subconscious mind works, and I think this is

[00:15:38] a really important thing to note, our subconscious mind when we believe something, it works to maintain its comfort zone because ultimately we're survival wired. So we can all feel that to certain degrees we're adverse to change. And this is because your subconscious mind says, well,

[00:15:53] we want to keep what's familiar because we've been surviving and thus familiarity equals safety. So it's a little challenging to just naturally change. We can't just consciously will our way. And research also shows us extremely conclusively that our conscious mind cannot outwill or

[00:16:09] overpower our subconscious mind. We can only recondition what's happening there beneath the surface. So we find the limiting beliefs. Okay, so let's say it's, oh, I don't believe I can make more money, or I'm always believing I'm going to be trapped in the wrong relationship, so

[00:16:22] I don't move in that direction. Whatever that limiting belief is, there's this really powerful tool. It's three steps, but I'll give a little bit of context for the steps, and it's called auto-suggestion belief reprogramming. So I worked in the space of hypnosis for a little while,

[00:16:38] and I didn't like the power dynamics. I was like, it's kind of like give the man to fish instead of teach a man to fish. And I didn't like, oh, people come in, it fosters all this dependency.

[00:16:46] I wanted to instead teach people about how their subconscious mind works and how they can reprogram themselves without having to come in each week and go through these sessions. So this tool basically is for that. It's how to actually rewire ourselves with our

[00:16:59] conscious and subconscious in communication. So the first step is we find that limiting belief. Okay, so I'm not good enough, or I will be trapped, or I'm not capable, or I will fail,

[00:17:09] whatever that big limiting belief is when we've found what goal we have and where we're being locked into not doing that. So step one, find the belief and find its opposite. Okay, so I will

[00:17:21] fail, I will succeed. I'm not good enough. I am good enough. Pretty simple to find its opposite. That's step one. Then we have to get our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind because nobody is consciously choosing to believe these things. Nobody's waking up going,

[00:17:33] I'm going to tell myself 400 times today that I'm not good enough and see how I feel. These are autopilot subconscious programs. So we have to speak to the subconscious mind. Now,

[00:17:42] what is the language of the subconscious? It is emotion and imagery. Okay? So if I say to you guys, I'm like, whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate chip cookie. You probably thought

[00:17:55] of a chocolate chip cookie because what happens is your conscious mind hears do not, it speaks in language. Your subconscious speaks in an emotion and imagery. So you see the picture of the

[00:18:05] chip cookie in your mind's eye, and maybe you're like, oh, I feel hungry. Like you feel some kind of emotion there. So what happens is people spend a lot of time trying to do affirmations.

[00:18:15] And it's like, well, you're only using your conscious mind to speak to your conscious mind, you're like, oh, I am good enough. I am good enough. It's not reaching your subconscious where the problem actually exists. So how do we get emotion and imagery? Well, emotions and images

[00:18:31] are all contained in memories. Every memory we have is just a series of emotions and images. If you think of your favorite childhood memory, you might be thinking of yourself on the playground,

[00:18:41] see the images of the slide. And as you tell the story of your memory, you'd smile. All the memory has that container of those things. So then we need to leverage principles of neuroplasticity, that firing and wiring. So we need repetition for that. So now the tool

[00:18:57] becomes really simple. We find the limiting belief in its opposite. Okay. I will fail. I will succeed. Number two, we come up with 10 for repetition pieces of memory where we have succeeded so that we can see those emotions and images. Now we're speaking to our own subconscious

[00:19:14] mind. And then research shows it takes 21 days to really hardwire a new neural pathways. So we record out those 10 memories on our phone or somewhere where we have access to it. And we

[00:19:25] listen back to it for 21 days. And we try to make sure that we are feeling and seeing the images as much as possible being present with that experience. And it is very profound for being able to reprogram

[00:19:37] limiting beliefs. And through self-observing, doing reprogramming, we now get the junk out of the way that stops us from really being able to break through in the next area of life. And the results people have from this is really transformation.

[00:19:51] I mean, I love that because it really is taking a step further than just here are some affirmations or here's some post-it notes that I'm going to put on my mirror and say it and see it. But like

[00:20:00] really actually, like you said, feeling it, getting back into that memory and emotion and that key link that I think is missing for most people. So I think that's super powerful. And I think it can be hard sometimes to identify limiting beliefs if you're not

[00:20:17] really aware of them because like you said, it's subconscious. So how do you start to even, I guess, identify some of these subconscious limiting beliefs? So this is a great question. So I tend to often break this down by attachment style,

[00:20:34] but we'll share that there's about 18 major, major core limiting beliefs that people have that will really kind of hijack all the different areas of their life. People who may find themselves, I break this down by attachment style, but you kind of have two

[00:20:47] paths, right? Step one is you're like, what is my goal? Why haven't I achieved this goal yet? And whatever your excuse is, is usually a form of limiting belief, right? But step two is there's

[00:20:56] these core limiting beliefs that people will tend to be able to really resonate with. And there's a set of questions we can use to get there. So these limiting beliefs are basically our

[00:21:05] triggers at the same time. These are the things that will drive us nuts, make us feel really frustrated or afraid or sad. So some of the major ones are if somebody is more anxious, especially in relationships and they see that in themselves, they usually have these big

[00:21:19] core wounds or limiting beliefs around, I will be abandoned. I'll be alone. I'm not good enough. I will be disliked, rejected, excluded, and unsafe. And those are like these big things.

[00:21:31] And we'll tend to see that like the big triggering events in our lives, we're giving it those pieces of meaning where like, if somebody doesn't call back and we're like, oh no, scrambling and

[00:21:41] panicking. Oh my gosh, I'm about to be abandoned. Right? One person who's anxious is making it mean that. And somebody who's not like that at all will be like, somebody didn't call me back and I'm totally unaffected. Right? So it's never the objective content. It's our subjective

[00:21:55] interpretation. And the reason it's so triggering is because we have past programming where we were hurt by events like this. And thus we're reprojecting that back out on two different experiences in the present. So those are one side of limiting beliefs. On sort of the other side,

[00:22:12] you'll see people who are more avoidant in relationships. They tend to fear commitment, things like that. They tend to have big limiting beliefs around I'm defective. They're very sensitive to criticism. People who basically experienced childhood emotional neglect will

[00:22:26] tend to feel a lot of internalized shame. So I'm defective. They also feel like I don't belong. They often feel like an outsider. They fear being trapped, helpless and powerless in a lot of different cases, weak if they're vulnerable, disrespected or stupid as a core belief. So

[00:22:44] those tend to be things people will really take to heart. And then we have another type of personality and relationships who's kind of hot and cold are referred to as the disorganized attachment style. And they basically share both of those sides of those beliefs, but they also have

[00:22:56] core wounds around feeling fear of betrayal, fear of being unworthy and fear of being bad, seeming like a bad person. And so if you see yourself in any of those sort of profiles,

[00:23:08] like, oh, that's such a big trigger for me when I feel trapped, that really gets under my skin. Or if I feel like somebody might betray me, I get really suspicious and hypervigilant, or

[00:23:18] I'm always worrying about abandonment in different areas of my life. What we'll tend to see is those are the core beliefs and they don't just affect us relationally. They affect us in the workplace,

[00:23:27] they affect us in our relationship to money in literally all these different areas. And if you now, since people sort of hear those core, core beliefs, the bottom rung of the ladder, those big,

[00:23:36] big triggers, now what people can do is when they are triggered by something, okay? So when they feel angry, frustrated, upset, whenever you're feeling emotionally dysregulated, you can ask yourself, what am I making this situation mean about me? And that's where you're actually going to be

[00:23:53] able to clearly extract that core belief. Oh, I'm triggered because my co-worker said something to me. I'm making it mean I am disrespected. Oh, I'm triggered because somebody isn't, you know, making enough time in the relationship with me. Okay. I'm feeling like I'm going to be alone.

[00:24:08] And so that question will really help us get to the bottom rung of those triggers. And when we reprogram those things and do that work, that's how we create really big breakthroughs. Because

[00:24:17] usually these things are things that are popping up in so many areas of life and are like actually really doing a lot of damage in different areas in terms of, you know, harming relationships or

[00:24:26] harming how we can show up at work or how present we can be. So important stuff to keep in mind. Yeah. And I think that's such a powerful example because generally in those times that you're

[00:24:36] triggered and Jen and I being married and being the closest relationship in my life, we go through this all the time where she does something and the initial thought in your mind when you get angry, impatient, whatever it is, is that like they did something. It's about them.

[00:24:54] And I like how you immediately just like encourage people to turn it inward. And I feel like I've continued to get better and better at this. Like, especially anytime Jen goes, Whoa, like, it's okay.

[00:25:06] Like, I don't know why you're being this way. I immediately try to like take a minute and say, like, why did that? Why did that do that to me? Like, why did I start saying these things in my

[00:25:17] head about myself? There's one example. I don't even think I talked with you about this. We were talking about, you know, we're new parents right now. Right? And we hung out with this group of

[00:25:25] friends that had a lot of other kids and I'm like, man, it was so fun for me to hang out with them because we were just with a bunch of other parents and we don't get that a ton with our

[00:25:35] other group of friends. And Jen's initial response was, what are you talking about? I have so many other mom friends that I've been hanging out with recently and like, I loved it.

[00:25:44] And something boiled up inside of me and I got a little bit short. And when I reflected on it, I'm like, yeah, you do. Like, you have a ton of amazing mom friends. I don't. I don't have those

[00:25:58] dad friends. Like, I thought about all of their partners and I'm like, I've never hung out with Tommy. I've never hung out with this other person because like, you're hanging out with their wife. And that's my insecurity that I don't have a ton of

[00:26:11] close dad friends that I do stuff with on a consistent basis. And that was like, as you were talking about that, I'm like thinking about this example that happened a few days ago. And do you know what you made it mean? Like, was it like I'm excluded?

[00:26:24] Yeah. I don't have friends. Like, I think that's the thing that comes up for me, especially having been being someone who moved to California, felt a little bit displaced for a while, felt like I was always just friends with Jen's friends. And I think it started bringing up

[00:26:39] the like, I'm alone. I don't have friends. I don't have close people in my life. You know, one of the core things that you just brought up. Exactly. And you found it. That's what it is. Like, I am alone. And it's so cool too. Like,

[00:26:49] and that's like such a good piece of the personal development versus like, not that, you know, just cult stuff. Not that all personal development is cult stuff. But it's like, I'm like, oh, is it excluded? And you're like, no, it's I'm alone. And so you like went inward,

[00:27:01] found what it is for you, that piece of meaning. And then we can do that reprogramming work. So your subconscious doesn't stay in that space. And then also, of course, there's the external work,

[00:27:10] which is like, okay, also go out into the world and spend time making new relationships and prioritizing that a little bit more as busy as things probably are. But that's where it's like, okay, then we create those breakthroughs. So that's really cool that you're able to just go

[00:27:22] in there and find that so quickly too. Yeah. And I appreciate Jen for letting me air that on the podcast without ever having chatted with her about it. But it is, and it helps me take

[00:27:31] ownership over it and say like, I get to reach out. Tommy mountain bikes. I love mountain biking. I know that we could connect on that. I've been meaning to get a bike for years, you know, like,

[00:27:41] I know there are things I can do to help resolve that. And maybe I need to hang a picture of a mountain bike on my mirror or something for 21 days and do some imagery.

[00:27:51] But I think that the most important part too is like, our emotions are always giving us perfect feedback. Like I think that people tend to kind of like demonize their own emotion sometimes. Like

[00:28:00] I don't want to feel bad. I'm going to like drink away my sorrows or like watch TV or scroll through social media to avoid myself. But like all of our emotions are these perfect guidance mechanisms.

[00:28:10] They're letting us know, Hey, something's a little out of alignment. And so when we feel our emotions and use that as a prompt to go inwards and then find out what that is,

[00:28:18] that's where we're able to be like, Oh yeah, I actually feel kind of alone sometimes. And so like, okay, I have to go inwards, do any reprogramming work if there's a big limiting belief and then also take that external action. And then your emotions were like this beautiful

[00:28:30] feedback mechanism that helped you grow and evolve your life in better ways. And I think that we have this like society and culture right now that's so conditioned. And I know you guys

[00:28:39] aren't like that, but you know, there's so much in society that's like, Oh, just scroll through social media or distract yourself from your emotions. And then we miss out on all those really powerful pieces of feedback that are helping us evolve to the next level.

[00:28:52] And we lose that in the mix of things. Well, I think that's the hardest part right now. Right? I mean, if you're in relationship and especially if we fall into this is like

[00:29:01] you when you're busy and your parents now and you're doing all these things and you just want like a second to just like zone out and you do start watching a show or that's your becomes

[00:29:11] your connection time is sitting down and watching a show which is not connecting at all. Sitting next to each other watching your own phones. You know, and it's like how do people start to find that communication and that connection again

[00:29:26] in relationship when we live in a world that is so scroll happy? I mean, we are social media involved. Our whole minds go here. So it's like even if there is a trigger, it's like, Oh, that's past. I'm in my phone now and we never talk about it.

[00:29:42] Okay. So this is a great question. So this is like one of my favorite topics. So every single person, everything that we do all day long, whether we are consciously aware of it

[00:29:52] or not, everything we do as a subconscious strategy to get needs met. And we all have needs that are like basically running the show beneath the surface all day long. And so it's funny because when you first mentioned that connection is a blower connecting on social

[00:30:05] media or through a show, I'm going to tell this really quick story. So I had this client years ago when I was running my practice and she came in one day, she's like, I just finished my PhD.

[00:30:13] It was like an education. And she was like, it's been six months and I'm supposed to be applying for a job and I'm not. And like, what is wrong with me? I have to like make money and get

[00:30:22] out there. I'm just like stuck in a rut. Like, please help me. And so we looked at her needs. So there's a way of like kind of discovering your big, what we call subconscious needs and her big needs were like social connection, emotional connection, security, and comfort.

[00:30:36] And so her conscious mind is going, I need to make new friends. I need to go, you know, or sorry, her conscious mind is going, I need to go get a job. And her subconscious mind is going,

[00:30:44] no, I want to connect with people socially and emotionally. But then she had this really big limiting belief that she was unlikable and she would always be rejected. And so what was happening

[00:30:54] is because your subconscious mind is always going to find a way to get its needs met, but it will do so through the maze or the barriers of your limiting beliefs. So she, I was like, well,

[00:31:03] what are you spending your time doing instead of applying for jobs? And she was like, I am reading Twilight novels obsessively and watching the reruns of this TV show called Mistresses. And what I found that was so interesting is she was feeling emotionally and socially connected to

[00:31:19] the characters in the stories while also being able to maintain her security and comfort zone, her other big subconscious needs, and not having to expose herself to the limiting beliefs. I will be rejected or disliked. And so all day, every day, our behaviors are influenced

[00:31:34] by our subconscious needs and how we're getting the mat through the filter of our belief system. And so what we did is we reprogram the limiting beliefs. I'll be disliked and rejected. God, her getting her needs met for social and emotional connection in more direct ways

[00:31:47] so that her buckets were filled and also starting in a way that made her feel secure and comfortable. And then she found herself feeling really fulfilled in those areas, not starving for

[00:31:56] these big needs. And now there was bandwidth in her life to go apply for jobs. And so it's so interesting how this kind of stuff takes place. But when we get into these roles of feeling like,

[00:32:06] okay, how do we communicate? How do we connect with people? Well, we're all starving for our needs. And if they're not being met in direct ways, we'll find them in really indirect forms. And that's part of where social media comes in because it's like this very convenient indirect

[00:32:19] way. So what I find to be really valuable in relationship is that we need to know what our big needs are and some of the major ones. And I can list some of them off for anybody listening

[00:32:29] who's like, I don't know where to start. Some of the major ones that we'll see are people will need and people can hear their needs in this hopefully. And I'll say one other thing too, just quickly is

[00:32:40] that our needs are the lifeblood of our relationships. If we... And not saying this for you guys at all, but what I would see in history of people in more unhealthy relationships too, when

[00:32:50] I was in client practice is when people are not getting their needs met, they start seeking out of the relationship for their needs to be met. And those are the roots of most people in infidelity, right? Because people are going... Their subconscious is a needs meeting machine.

[00:33:02] It's always going to find a way to get its needs met. And so if you're seeing 20 year marriages where people are starving for something for a long time, and then that comes along externally,

[00:33:11] that's where people will jump ship or do things that they would never do that are out of character because the subconscious is just wired to get needs met. It's like the survival thing.

[00:33:20] So big needs and relationships tend to be on one side of the continuum. The more anxious individuals tend to need a lot of validation, reassurance, encouragement, certainty, deep connection to feel seen, heard, understood, and wanted and made a priority. Okay? So these

[00:33:36] are like... Most people will hear that if that's them. There's the kind of opposing side to that will be individuals who need a lot of freedom, independence, but they also respond very well and need a lot of empathy, support, acceptance. And they also need to be appreciated and

[00:33:52] acknowledged, especially around small consistent things in relationships. And then there's this other sort of middle ground where people will need a lot of depth in their relationship, a lot of emotional intimacy, a lot of consistency, a lot of novelty and exploration,

[00:34:08] and then also need some of that sort of appreciation acknowledgement as well. So I'm kind of going by the different attachment styles, but those are the major relationship needs people will have. And these don't just influence our romantic relationships.

[00:34:21] They influence our friendships, our family relationships. And so when we can start to hear, oh yeah, those were some of my big needs. And then we can create direct strategies and relationship to feed into those things. Now, all of a sudden, we're actually going to feel

[00:34:34] more fulfilled. And the more our needs are met, the more energized we tend to be. If you've ever had the experience of going into a space that really meets your needs, maybe you love novelty and you try something new, you can be exhausted and walk into something you

[00:34:46] love and light up and get all your energy back. So when our needs are really met, we feel more fulfilled, we get more present, and it really positively impacts our relationships. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense too to continue to hear. And I hope for other people listening

[00:35:03] too where my needs that are potentially not being met and how am I starting to see how I'm fulfilling them from these little things rather than really diving in and taking a deeper look and seeing and communicating more effectively what I need. And I think that's the

[00:35:22] number one thing with relationships is how does someone start to communicate and build that connection if they've been so disconnected and they've been fulfilling their needs in other ways? How does someone start to build that bridge again in that, I'll say, intimate relationship for this

[00:35:44] one? Such a good question. So the first step is to know what you need because if you don't know what you need, then you're never going to get the needs met. So step one is to find your needs.

[00:35:51] And what we talked about step two is I often tell... I teach this class sometimes and it's about the ways communication goes wrong. So we can kind of use that as a framework. And I call

[00:36:02] them like the stops on the train. So stop one, and people do this all the time and it's actually tragic because they mean well and it just destroys their connection and ability to get their needs

[00:36:12] met. People will do what we call negative framing. So rather than saying, hey, I need more quality time together, they'll say, you never spent enough time with me, you don't care. And so that

[00:36:24] will not get you heard. That will just get your partner feeling very defensive. So step one is we positively frame. So we might say, hey, I'm feeling disconnected this week. I would love to spend more

[00:36:32] time together. Let's plan something really fun to do on the weekend. And when we positively frame, we're going to get heard. We're really clearly stating our needs and we're way more likely to

[00:36:41] get our needs met. So that's like the first place to check in with if somebody is new to this kind of communication because that small shift in just positively framing will go a hugely long way.

[00:36:52] Step two is we have to make sure that we're very specific. So I would see this a lot. I see this all the time in our programs with people that we run. People will be like, they'll speak of their

[00:37:02] need and they'll say, I need more support. But maybe for you, support looks like a hug. And maybe for you, support looks like words of affirmation or doing the chores. So we have to

[00:37:15] paint a picture of what this looks like so that there's no room for miscommunication. And this helps it get really clear and specific. And so step three becomes we have to see our needs through

[00:37:25] embodied communication. Isn't I communicated my need to you once, now you better remember forever or you don't care about me. And I'll never tell you again. And people are so, people do this all

[00:37:36] the time. I used to be super guilty of that. I'd be like, but it's so vulnerable to communicate my needs. So I said at once, my husband should always remember. And then I was like, wait,

[00:37:44] that's really not realistic. So what we do is we make sure that we're communicating our need very clearly and specifically. We're painting a picture of what it looks like. We're making sure we

[00:37:54] positively frame and we remind somebody if we've fallen off, Hey, this is a really important need to me. Can we work on this a little bit? And we positively frame that. And just those simple steps

[00:38:04] help us completely transform communication. And when we see somebody in a loving relationship show up for those things, it's life changing, right? It really transforms the relationship and it insulates the relationship from us, like seeking outside in smaller forms, whether that's

[00:38:18] 20 years out in really negative ways. Cause we've been starving for a long time or whether that's just like in the present moment through indirect forms like social media or things that aren't actually filling those needs buckets. I think that's so fascinating. And I selfishly love doing

[00:38:34] interviews like this when it's about relationships, cause I get to do it with my wife. And when I hear you talking about certain things, it's just like, wow, yeah, that's probably where

[00:38:44] Jen lies more on the spectrum. And Oh, yep. A lot of my needs lie on the other end of the spectrum. Exactly what you said, like knowing that and knowing yourself and what your needs are

[00:38:53] and communicating that it doesn't matter if you lie on exact opposite ends of the spectrum, as long as you know how you can make your partner feel like their needs are being met. And I think that's so important. We've chatted about attachment styles throughout a lot of these

[00:39:09] answers. And I know that you specifically have, is it called the Gibson integrated attachment theory that you have created? So again, you've gone over some of them and maybe we can focus a little bit more on like how is your Gibson integrated attachment theory different or what components

[00:39:25] does it include that you didn't find in other attachment theory study? Yeah. Great question. So essentially it is the study of how we can change our attachment style. So the original work was done by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. It's amazing work. It talks

[00:39:39] a lot about attachment styles and temperament and sort of personalities. But what we did is we went into the core wounds. So you heard me mention the core wounds by attachment style originally, the needs by attachment style, the emotional patterns. So the different

[00:39:53] attachment cells will tend to actually express emotions differently. Some will feel more anxious and panicked and fearful of being alone and regretful and sometimes feeling kind of desperate or nervous in relationships. Some will feel irritable, impatient, more angry, frustrated.

[00:40:09] And then some will feel like hurt a lot and very angry and heated if they get hurt. So basically each attachment cell, we did a much deeper dive into the core wounds, the needs, the emotional patterns and the relationship they tend to have to boundaries

[00:40:24] and communication. And then what we did is we did a tremendous amount of research. I took tens of thousands of people through this work and it was a study of how we can actually

[00:40:34] change our attachment cell to become secure and have secure relationships. So I was a fearful avoidant. I was the one that was like very hot and cold in relationships, like push pull. I would be anxious sometimes and like really avoidant other times. And so I first did a

[00:40:47] lot of work on changing my attachment style and then went into client practice, did a lot of that work there. And then we created these online programs. And it's a study of like how we can reprogram our core wounds, learn to meet our needs,

[00:40:59] learn to communicate them and learn to emotionally regulate through doing things like nervous system regulation work, breathwork, meditation, these types of things. And by really tackling those major pillars, we actually become securely attached because we're not born with an attachment

[00:41:12] style. It gets conditioned into our subconscious over time. So we can actually recondition these patterns to become secure. And that's where we statistically have the greatest chance of long-term relational success. And so a lot of it is like a lot of understanding, not just

[00:41:28] our attachment style, but also others' attachment styles and how if they differ a little bit, we can have different needs. And you kind of touched on this earlier, which is so cool, but it's funny. A lot of people in successful relationships have different attachment styles

[00:41:42] to begin with because we're not as attracted to just the same as we are. One of the big biological features of what creates attraction is something known as trait variety. We tend to be attracted to people who express different things than us. And when we get into relationship

[00:41:56] with those people, when we do honor their needs and we do make an effort to pour into things that are different from us, it evolves us as people too. It makes us a more whole version of ourselves.

[00:42:07] So there's all this really cool benefit that comes out of not just knowing our attachment style and working through it, but also being in relationship with people who have different patterns because it

[00:42:17] makes us more whole and it exposes us to a lot of really unique and cool things that we wouldn't have necessarily had access to just on our own or just being with somebody so similar to ourselves. Mm.

[00:42:27] I know. And I think that's funny to be able to observe as well, the differences in people, but what a cool thing to be able to also learn from someone else and learn what they need and

[00:42:41] what they do and how to communicate with them more effectively and how to communicate your own needs. I think that's something that is definitely a skill and takes time to develop and continue to work on through life. If you want relationships through life, no matter what type

[00:42:56] of relationships, you're always going to have to learn how to communicate more effectively with those people and that's going to change through different life phases. I think that's important to continue to acknowledge. I love everything that you've been educating on and really diving into

[00:43:15] and giving people tools and understanding in a deeper way. I think this has been so, so beneficial. Where could people really go to learn more from you or join the school or get your book? You also have your incredible book that just released in December. Congratulations. Thank you.

[00:43:34] So where can people go? Obviously, we're going to have this all linked up in the show notes for you guys, but just so that they can hear it and maybe go check it out now. Thank you. Yeah, so they can go to personaldevelopmentschool.com.

[00:43:46] And there we actually have, if you do personaldevelopmentschool.com forward slash free trial, people actually join the programs for free and check them out and learn their attachment style, take the attachment quiz, all that kind of stuff. So we have that available

[00:43:59] that we're running for a limited time. So that should be open. And also our book is on Amazon and I put daily content out on YouTube at personaldevelopmentschool-thaisgibson. Amazing. Amazing. So yeah, we'll have that all linked up. Go check out the free trial if you've never

[00:44:16] learned your attachment style and the book Learning Love. Thank you so much for being here. I learned a ton. I have some things that I want to start trying to implement in my life

[00:44:26] and ways that Jen and I can continue to learn more about each other and how to strengthen that secure attachment. And I think you gave so many tools for people who are listening to try it as well. So thank you for being here.

[00:44:39] Thank you both so much for having me. This was so fun to chat with both of you. Such a great episode. I feel like we can keep talking to her. Now, don't forget,

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