Overcoming Chronic Pain: Lessons from Trevor Barker

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of the Modern Pain Podcast. I'm fired

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: up to be bringing you one of my favorite episode formats which is interviewing lived

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: experiencers of pain. If you've listened to this podcast, you know it drives me absolutely

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: crazy when we continuously sit in circles of clinicians, academics and researchers

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and make decisions on what people in pain should be doing. All of this without the

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: one voice that should be present more than any, which is the voice of the person in

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: As I've had the privilege of getting to talk to people who have went from suffering and

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: fighting their pain to living well with pain, it has struck me on how little it often

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: had to do with the hyper-technical interventional methods we are taught in school or on weekend

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: courses and more to just being a kind, supportive, present and caring human.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: This week's guest, Trevor Barker is another great example of someone living well with

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: pain and giving back to help others struggling with pain to living well with pain themselves.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevor spoke to his transition from the medical model trying to fix and rid himself

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: of pain to taking a different approach and learning to live well with pain.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: We spoke to medications for pain and how it impacted Trevor and the challenges he

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: faced when he tried to move away from them.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It just keeps going up.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The intervention that doctors offer is to explore issues with tissues, as Dave Butler

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: would say, put you into scans, pathology testing, pills, different pills, bigger pills.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You give that a go and I gave it a go for a very long time and I realised at

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: some point that I was a zombie.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I was using heavy amounts of opiates.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I was sleeping a lot.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I was numbed out.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: My brain was in a fog.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevor shared his decision to pursue doing things in life that he valued despite his

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: pain not being completely gone.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was about time that I gave what I was learning in the program,

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: his best effort, to see how that would work out.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: With the thought that I might have a life and I might still be in pain,

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: at least I'll be doing a lot more than just lying around doing nothing and still being in pain.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have patients who are struggling with pain, this is a great episode to share with them.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're listening, I would love if you could subscribe wherever you're

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: listening to the podcast, if you're watching on YouTube.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: If you could subscribe and even throw a like on this video,

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: it'll help us spread it to more people.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Modern Pain Podcast with Mark Cardula.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevor, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's just great to be with you this morning, Mark.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I asked Trevor on these are my favorite episodes to record because I think it's

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the most underrepresented voice that is in healthcare and that's the voice of

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody who's walked the shoes of a person in pain and continues to

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: walk the shoes of a person in pain and living well with pain.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got to know Trevor's story a bit through Tom Bone.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: He's been on the podcast.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He runs a Facebook group, Chronic Pain Champions, I believe it's called.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just saw Trevor really reaching out and helping some of these people who

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: come into Tom's group who are struggling.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I find it fascinating to just lurk in Tom's group just to see how

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: patients are helping each other.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's such a powerful medium, people in pain helping other

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: people who are struggling to find their way when they're having a

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: life changing experience where pain starting to really limit their

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: ability to live to the values they want to live towards.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into some of the details of that, Trevor, I'd love,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe you can share a little bit of where you're at, what you're up to,

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe the story of where your pain journey started.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Where I'm at the moment is a bit of limbo land in between jobs.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been working for the last three or four years in prisons,

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: supporting Aboriginal men particularly to transition out of prison and

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: back to community.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of those people have trauma stories and a lot of them

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: have chronic pain.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's been a special time for me just to be able to journey with them,

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to share a little bit of my story and help them to make good plans for

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: getting support when they come home.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also involved in Pain Revolution.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a group led by Professor Laura Mamosly.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And each year they do a tour around a regional area of Australia.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the fascinating things for me is that Laura has understood that in

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: regional and rural areas, access to the latest pain science and support

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: from people to live well with their pain is very limited.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And in one sense, that's a good thing because then they don't get access

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to the medicalized system of health that can really do a lot of harm.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll touch on that when I share a bit more of a story.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also not a good thing because there needs to be a big step up

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of knowledge, but also an encouragement to people that are

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: living with pain that there is a different road to take.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And that road can make a big difference in how they live life.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That's where I'm at the moment.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The Pain Revolution, when is exactly that?

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Does that come around?

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: What time of year?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It's coming up in about four weeks' time.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It starts in Mount Gambier in South Australia and heads towards the

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Grampians and finishes up in Horsham.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And for anyone that's in Australia that's interested, they can just go

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to Pain Revolution and see the different dates.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's mid-September.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not far away and I'll be speaking at a couple of the venues

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and looking forward to catching up with the time.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an amazing event.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I've just seen it from afar here in the States and seen some of

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the social media highlights and things.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I've heard Lorimer talk about it in various kind of settings when

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: he's been interviewed about it.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like an amazing event.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: For those of you who are listening in Australia, we do definitely

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: have some folks in Australia who listen.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you check it out.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll link it in the show notes so you can all take a look at

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: when the dates are and maybe help your community or help some

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: folks that are really to get connected with some better information

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: about pain and that can hopefully change their journey.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: With your journey, Trevor, I'm wondering if you can recount a little bit.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I know a bit from just seeing it and hearing you discuss it as

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you share some of your story with people that are struggling

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in some of the support groups I've seen you interact in.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm wondering for the audience, if you can maybe touch

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: upon your journey as far as pain is concerned.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll go right back to probably not having 77 when I injured my back at work.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was carrying an extension ladder and it hit a beam in the roof.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to bend backwards to get it under the beam and then

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: use my back to lift it back up.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And about three days later, I was in a world of fairly move.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I went off to the doctor.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The doctor prescribed some pills and sent me to a physiotherapist

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: who started working on a call street.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And back then it was all about working with call strength.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I recovered and went back to work a couple of weeks after that,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: but had niggly back pain for many years.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it progressively got worse.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I coincided with a period of time in my life where I was under

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a lot of stress personally.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was starting to have to deal with early childhood abuse and trauma.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And work that I was getting on my back, all focused on a medicalized approach to

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to investigate the cause of my pain.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And in my mind, once they knew exactly what was going on,

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: they'd be able to fix it with a pill or something.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I tried every sort of therapy.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: If they had therapy in the nameplate, I'd been there and visited.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I got massage therapy, myotherapy, osteotherapy, physio, the whole lot.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And even ended up having steroid injections in my spine.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And that gave me a relief for about three or four months.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had three of those.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But the third one, I had a serious adverse outcome.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: My right leg felt like it was a big pot of Play-Doh

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and it went all rubbery on me.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I got off the trip and table and fell.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And they immediately put me back on the trip and table

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and said, you better stay there for an hour.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I did that and then I had a support person with me to take me home.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to walk to the car and I fell walking upstairs on the way up.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I functioned.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And after that, I said, I'm never going to get one of those again.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, they said to me, the gap in your distance is too small

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to do this again.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And all the while that I was getting this treatment,

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: my pain went from one spot through my back, into my neck,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: into my legs, into my feet.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I coined a bit of a joke with my massage therapist

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that I was seeing weekly for quite a few years.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: She'd asked me how it was and I'd say the nose is okay today.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a bit of a mindset that everything was a problem.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I even coined an acronym for a new condition.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I thought to myself, if it's well enough for surgeons

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to come up with their own syndrome,

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I might as well come up with one of mine.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I came up with two.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And the surgeons have failed low back surgery syndrome

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and mine was TRMS, which was therapy resistant muscle syndrome

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: because I'd get a relief for a little while

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and then twang the muscles would go back

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's in my imagination.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was in a lot of pain again.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And the second syndrome that I came up with was PMS.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was absolutely the expert at PMS,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: which is pull-me syndrome.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Everything was a problem.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And look, I've since learned that the way that we see

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and feel contributes to the intensity of our pain.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So the more stressed we are, the more intense our pain is.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I got to the point where I was in serious pain.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I was protecting myself.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I was lying down with two or three hot water bottles

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: on my back for hours a day, not moving in the thought

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that if I moved, I'd be making my pain worse.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I did that for many years.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I got to a point where I had a conversation with a friend

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: who was on large doses of opiate medication

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and extreme pain and dysfunction.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And he told me about a pain management clinic.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I went off and enrolled in that course.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a three-week living course.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's time to go and visit them.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a four-hour assessment.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And they go through everything.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: How you move, you have interviews with psychologists,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: occupational therapists, physiotherapists, doctors.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And they establish what your baseline is.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They even film me walking and talking about my situation.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was getting down on myself at this time

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because I can't completely touch my knees when I bend over.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that time, I could only walk 100 meters

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: without my calves just locking up on me.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was really unable to move the remote.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the middle of doing this assessment,

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the occupational therapist said to me,

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to put your arms up and hold them up

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: at shoulder height for as long as you can.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had a bit of a smirk develop on my face.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, you beauty, I'll show you.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so up they went.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And 10 minutes later, he was looking at his stopwatch.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He said, oh, listen, you've broken every land speed record

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not even breaking out in a sweat.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we'll just fill up stumps and go on with the next thing.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But what was going on in my head at the time

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: was a bit of a reality check, really,

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that I could experience the fact that I could do something

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because I used my body in that particular way.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason I was able to do that is I've played the flute

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: for 40 years at that stage.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so holding my arms up for a long time

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: was just normal for me.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And the message that sort of got into my head

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: at that stage was, if you use your body, it can work.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Started this three-week live-in program

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: where they taught us all about pain science.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But they also, instead of just talking about it, you did it.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So we started to change the way that we did life

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: over that time.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I got off my pain medication.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And it took me 12 months to get off

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: all of the medication.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, the last pill that I was taking

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: was an antidepressant that was used for nerve pain

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in low doses.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was working really well.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't experiencing any nerve pain.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought to myself at the end of the day,

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: why am I taking this pill?

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see if this stuff that I'd learned

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: would deal with my nerve.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So I rang up the pain clinic and said,

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: how do I come off these pills?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: What dose do I need to reduce?

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And do it slowly over a period of time.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They gave me that information, and I did it.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And lo and behold, no nerve pain.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was pretty pleased about that.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So I said at that stage, when I started the program,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I've given everything that the doctors had asked me to do

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: a best effort.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I've given them 20 years of my life,

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and I haven't got a life.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I might as well give this stuff a good red hot dough

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and see what it does.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I might as well have a life with pain

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: than be on the lantern and floor with hot water bottles

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: doing nothing and still being in pain.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, pain going from one point

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to all over my body.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And being very sensitive to any exacerbation,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: any movement, any change would just trigger me off.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a bit about my story with pain.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And after doing that program,

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the first things that I did was to go over to Perth,

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which is the other side of Australia,

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: because my daughter lives there.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And she had her, I had a granddaughter over there,

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and she had a family.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I went over, and at this stage,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd gone from walking 100 meters

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to being able to walk 10 kilometers.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was a massive difference.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was over there for about two weeks

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was walking every day

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and she was starting to notice the big difference.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: She went from protecting me,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I said, no dad, it's all right.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll pick that up or I'll do that.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And being quite vigilant about making sure

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that I didn't hurt myself.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I still have friends today

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that have known me from a long time ago

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that are still protective in their way

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that they approach me

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and making sure that I don't do too much.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're in this room is a indoor rainforest.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I built it during COVID.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: In Victoria, the whole state was locked down

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: for about nine months

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and nobody could leave on them.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we built a room

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that has floor to ceiling plan.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a couple of ponds,

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got fish in here and frogs.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a very calm place for us to come and sit

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and just be with each other,

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: have our friends around and be calm.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so that's life has changed a lot.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Really appreciate you sharing that.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an interesting story

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of definitely a major transformation you had for you.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the things that you mentioned,

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious with was there a particular aha moment

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that you experienced or was there something that

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: as you made this kind of journey

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: to really get your life back

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and like you said might as well start living

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with pain versus laying around doing nothing with pain.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Were there any particular moments

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: or people you encountered that really

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: helped you make that shift

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that you feel were instrumental in it?

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think for me coming to the realization

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that I'd given the medicalized approach its best effort

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and it got me nowhere.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it took me back in a really bad place.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So for me,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the aha moment was holding my arms up

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and just realizing that

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I've neglected every part of my body not move,

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'd still laid the flute.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was about time that I gave

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: what I was learning in the program its best effort

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to see how that would work out

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: with the thought that I might have a life

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and I might still be in pain,

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: at least I'll be doing a lot more

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: than just lying around doing nothing

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and still being in pain.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I discovered was that by getting a lot

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and getting active and doing things

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing many things,

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I was able to do that without pain.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a shed just behind me

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a great woodworking space

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and I started going and doing some woodworking

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and I realized that I could be out in the shed

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: for two or three hours doing real woodworking

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'd have to whack myself

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: because I hadn't felt any pain during that time.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was an aha moment really

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that it was unheard of for me to go two minutes

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: without pain, only until three hours.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And so things started to change for me.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So I did the pain program in 2016 in September

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and the pain revolution was coming to Albury.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know anything about them at that stage

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but when I did a little bit of reading

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I discovered that this was a big thing.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Professor Laura Moseley and David Butler

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and Tessa Stanton and a whole lot of really good people

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: were coming to Albury of all places

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a smallish rural city.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was my backyard.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I made contact with them and said,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: look, I don't mind reaching out to service providers

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in the community to engage them

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: in coming along to this event.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And they said, yeah, that'd be great.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I did my thing.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So networking for me is like putting socks on.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really good at it.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I started doing some networking

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and I got about 160 people to two events

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: which was much more than any event

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that they had right through the tour.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I did such a good job of engaging the community

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that I was asked to come and work for them

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the following year.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So I ended up touring Tasmania

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing a lot of speaking

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and getting involved.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Something happened in Albury.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Dave Butler got up and started to talk

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: about DIMSIM therapy.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that stage, DIMSIM therapy

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: hadn't been incorporated into the Albury-Wodonga

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: consisting pain clinic that I'd done.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'd done the program prior to them

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: using DIMSIM therapy.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And that fascinated me that the idea

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that we can look at danger in me

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and perhaps ditch danger in me

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: or change the narrative to be safety in me.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So an example of that would be my set

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that kept me protecting my back

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and lying down with hot water bottles on it

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and not moving.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I did that for 20 years.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That was a danger in me.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Not moving was.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was making my pain just go

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: from one spot to all over.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So I changed that thought from move

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you'll be in pain

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to moving is a good thing.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And that became a SIM.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I started to move.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Did a lot of hydrotherapy getting in the water.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That was very helpful

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to experience moving

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and the warm and support

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that the water offered was a big thing.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So did that for a while.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I started adopting DIMSIM therapy

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: into my whole life.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Simple stuff.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I was protective of my back

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: everything in my house was on that beach level

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and quickly ran out of beach space.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't put stuff high or low

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but then I started to change it up

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to put stuff down low and up high.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Me that moving and to get stuff out

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: of the cup at the bottom became normal.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So almost changing the built environment

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to support safe movement

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and seeing that movement was a good thing.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Not a danger.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That made it made a big difference.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: There's David Butler and Lorimer's group

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Noi Group have a protectameter book

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: which the DIMSIM therapy

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is a really big hallmark of that book

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: where patients can work through it

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and clinicians can work through with patients.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe that book's still out there.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They made it.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe it's still in print

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if we could circle back

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to a little bit because

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we have a lot of clinicians watching

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and probably some patients that tune in

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: from time to time.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: The medication challenge

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because you were able to look at that

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and say, hey it's time for me

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm wondering

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: were there hesitations to get off meds

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: because I see patients where

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that's almost just like

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: a very dangerous security blanket

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: to let go of

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're just very fearful

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of the uncertainty of what might happen

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: if they go off of these medications.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously you

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and I've had a lot of other people

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: have gotten off them say, yeah

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I was shocked to see how well it went.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What were the challenges you faced

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and what kind of helped you

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: navigate your way off of the medications?

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh that's a very good question Mark.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: See I when you go to the doctor in pain

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they give you a pill

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and they say come back in two weeks

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're still in pain.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You come back in two weeks time

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they give you a bigger pill

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and it just keeps going up

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and the intervention the doctors offer

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: is to explore issues with tissues

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: as no one would say

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: put you into scans

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: pathology testing

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: pills, different pills, bigger pills

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and you give that a go

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and I gave it a go for a very long time

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and you realize

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that I realized at some point

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that I was a zombie.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I was using heavy amounts of opiates

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I was sleeping a lot

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I was numbed out

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: my brain was in a fog

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and the other side effect was that

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: opiates do is they make constipated

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and you get hemorrhoids

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I needed an operation

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: there with that

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I got to a point

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: where those bigger pills

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: just were killing me almost.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Now it's not to the extreme levels

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that I've seen

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I worked as a pain coach for a while

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and I had two people

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: stick in my mind

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: one that was in palliative care

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: because of kidney failure

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: due to the adverse effects

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: of the medication that he was on

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and another one

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: who was applying for

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: the disability support pension

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: because he was going blind

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: from the effects of long-term steroid use.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Doctors don't necessarily

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: explain the side effects

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but we live with them

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we experience them

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a slow burn

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a bit like putting a frog

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a cold glass

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and slowly heading up the water

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and they stay there.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So as the medication slowly increase

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the adverse effects start to kick in

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and it takes a long time

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: for people to realize that

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: hey this medication road is not good

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think having some curiosity

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: about that saying what else is there

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: how can I deal with this

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because fallacy that doctors tend to

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: make a lot of money out of

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: is that hey they are going to

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: find the root cause of my pain

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are going to fix it.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Now we have so many procedures out there

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: cutting out nerve for example

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: spinal stems

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: spinal fusing surgery

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: all of this intervention

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: designed to wipe out pain

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and where you have at the back of all of that

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: failed low back surgery syndrome

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: because the failure is hasn't fixed pain

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so pain is far more complex

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: than just issues with tissue

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and what I got to learn

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and start putting into practice

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: was there's not a whole

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't need to see conversation with

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: tape but I'll come back to that

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not a whole lot we can do

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: our tissues

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what I would say

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but I know I can do something

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: about the psychological

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and the social drivers of

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: assisting pain

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and they looked at being said hey

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you deal with the psychological

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and social

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and your body responds differently

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it starts to heal

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and your tissue start to perform differently

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: now that's why simple language

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: he had more scientific language

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: all that but the basic thing is

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: hey there's actually a side effect

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to having a good social

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and psychological well-being

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that is that the whole body

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: metaphor takes time

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a different road

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a liberating road

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because you can start to reclaim your life

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's what I discovered

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: pretty impressive story

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and David Butler one of the

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: giants in our field

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: as far as pain science

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: really had made massive contributions

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: along with him and Lorimer

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Tasha and all the groups over there

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: doing some amazing work

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you speak to the social components

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think are greatly

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: underestimated as far as that

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but the psychosocial components

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: have significant the context

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that we inhabit

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and the influences of our context

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: of people and supportive relationships

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or stressful things

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that can really impact our biology

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like David had mentioned

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you spoke to how

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: when you visited your daughter

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: there was this kind of initial

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe prior to you getting

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: making these big jumps

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and improving things that

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: family and even friends

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: it sounds like were very protective of you

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: is almost like a dim through them

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if you can discuss that

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that function of social contact for you

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and how maybe it maybe transition

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: from dim to sim

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or how you could view it

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: in that dim to sim framework

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: when you have maybe

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: well-meaning loving family

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and friends of course

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they care for us

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they want us to be safe in things

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but sometimes that can go to our detriment

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes when maybe

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: we're trying to navigate things

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: into a more living well with pain

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and starting to become more

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: supported self-management on my own

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: versus people protecting me

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering if you could speak to that

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're not meant to be alone

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: we're meant to be social

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you think about

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the intensity of pain

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that in your face pain

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a significant part of that

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: is stress

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the more stressed we are

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the more intense we are

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and I mentioned that we

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a few things going on in my life

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and my wife's quite a mullet environment

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and in the last

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: about a week and a half ago

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: for the first time in eight years

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: my back pain came back

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was starting to get rather

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: crippled by it

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and I selected myself

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: what I do now is

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of saying

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what have you done to your back

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: what have you lifted

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what have you done

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: first question is

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you stressing about

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and I took some anti-inflammatories

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: for a couple of days

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: just to calm that down a little bit

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: started to move

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: got back into the pool

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: talked to my wife

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: calmed down a little bit

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and lo and behold

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: no more pain

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: no more back pain

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the social stuff

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: when we become isolated

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: we're left in our own thoughts

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're left in that

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: PMS world

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: of everything's a problem

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: whereas when we connect with

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: other people

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and we get out

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and we have fun

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and we laugh

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: the endorphins get flowing

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and we are in a far better place

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: within our whole body and mind

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the point of social

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: is being safe

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: in our relationship

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: so I've got a bit of a story

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: if you don't mind

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: tell about Dave Butler

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: we're on tour around Tasmania

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and we get down to Hobart

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to one of the venues

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and Dave and Diane Wilson

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: were talking at this event

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was at an aged care centre

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: so if you can imagine

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: being upstairs

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: from an aged care home

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's this big training room

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and they filled it up

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: with old people

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and one of the beautiful things

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: about Dave is

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: he'll walk into a room

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and he'll just sit with it

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: you can see his brain ticking over

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's discerning

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's picking up on the mood

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: in the room with him

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he gets very nervous

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's a bit jumpy

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's starting to prepare

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what he's going to say

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and my context at that point

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: was that I'd been married

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for 30 years

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and ended up divorcing

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was a sad long story of pain

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'd walked away

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: from that marriage

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking to myself

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that's it

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going back into relationships

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm done

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it was just too painful

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: so Dave gets up

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and he starts to talk to this audience

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which is 80% over 80

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and he says to them

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk to you

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: about the pharmacy in our head

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what pills are in our head

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that we release

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: how do we do it?

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and so he asked that question

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and he got to talk about endorphins

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and all sorts of good stuff

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: going around our bodies

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and how our brain can release them

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said something

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: he said what do you think

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: gets these happy juices going the best

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's a bit of a pause

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and he yelled out

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: what about sex

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of these old people started

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: nodding their heads

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm sitting there

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to keep a straight face

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: because of my own story

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of childhood abuse and stuff

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and being confronted with that thought

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: just smacking your face

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: well the other thing

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that was going around in my head

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: was Mephiston happening

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and it changed my thoughts

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: on the spot

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe I need to

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: think about getting back into the relationship

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and the short story is

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that I did find

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you know a most amazing woman

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and we came together

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and we got married

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in fact that's what happened in March

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: late March

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: where when that story happened

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: we were married in October

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so it happened very quickly

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and we we said to ourselves

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: K-R-O-E

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to have a kind, calm, loving life

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's as simple as a gift

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: we're in this yarning room

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: where we could sit and have a coffee

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and listen to the frogs

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and have a little light

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and have a bit of a retreat

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and some quiet time

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but everything we do

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: is centered around that

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and we do a lot of things

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in the community with each other

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: we have a meaningful life

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's really important part of our story

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of calming our nervous system

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: creating positive change in our lives

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way that we do life

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: really does matter

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so we can greatly influence our pain state

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: or how we do life

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but people aren't

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a great example of the social components of pain

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and leave it to David Butler

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I've just seen some of his stuff

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never met David personally

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully I can get him one day

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to come on the podcast

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but he's an amazing guy

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and definitely somebody I heard

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that has quite the sense of humor

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: amazing story there

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you've since again

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: as I've gotten to know you

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit online

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: just watching and lurking

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: in the background in Tom's group

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the chronic pain champions group

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I see you in there

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: reaching and trying to help some people

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of times it's fascinating

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: just to see some of those people

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: really going through some difficult times

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and struggling

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm sure you're seeing

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe some of your past struggles

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: in a lot of what you see

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering what are some of the common

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: things maybe you see

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: with some of the people

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that are really struggling

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: or maybe earlier on in their journey

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: where maybe you were

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: prior to having the pain program

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and getting all this amazing support

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: from some great folks

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder what is some of the big common things

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that folks are struggling with

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: better able to get their lives back

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: when it comes to some of these

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: persistent pain issues

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: before I touch on that

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the important things

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: is that

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: as a person with a lived experience

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: when I speak

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: people pay attention

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: because they somehow

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: understand at a heart level

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that this person has been through

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: some of what I've been through

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to be respectful of that

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but also understand that

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: none of us really knows

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: what's going on with another person

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we can journey with them

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we can listen to them

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: we can accept them

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and the most important thing

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: we can do is model

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to other people

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_00]: how we do life

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's the challenge of

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps we could talk about a little later

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about as clinicians

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: how do we model life

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and how do we bring along for the ride

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: our patients

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and encourage them

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to model what we do

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and when I went over to

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a photo

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll send it to you

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but my granddaughter

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: he was probably 12 months old

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: 18 months old at the most

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got my leg up on a block of concrete

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: stretching my calves

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: before going for a walk

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm doing that

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: changing the other leg

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: My own daughter picked up the camera

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and took a photo of her daughter

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: doing exactly the same thing at that age

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: she was stretching her calves

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: put it leg up like grandad

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: now that's how we do life

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: models to other people

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: how to do it

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and one of the things that common

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: the common thing

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for a lot of people in Tom's group

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: is just reflective of what I've been talking about

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that we have a natural

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: plan to go back to

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the one question

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: what's going on in my body

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what are the issues with my tissues

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and then centering everything that we do

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00]: around answering that question

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: which in my mind

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't free us from pain

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because we then go down the road of medication

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: there's lots of times people post

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard about this treatment

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: who's had an experience with that treatment

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to find out whether a particular treatment

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is going to work for their condition

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and so my response to that was to say

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: hey we're asking the wrong questions

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and because if you're looking for an answer

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: to your ongoing persisting pain

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: then you're not going to find it

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in that one nerve

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not working well

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because the whole body gets nervous

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: we have to calm our whole self down

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: not just go to that one thing and rip it out

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but some surgeons do they burn off nerve

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and or they'll do a surgery

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and lo and behold the pain is still present

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that's probably one of the biggest challenges

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: within a group of people with a lived experience

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: is their natural link for an agent

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to latch on to what treatment is going to work for me

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah you've spoke to some of the things about living

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: being that example as a clinician

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of living the ways that we're trying

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to help patients to live

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering besides that

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: what are some of the if you could change

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: one clinician behavior

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I know there's many that need to be changed

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm wondering what is the one thing

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that if you could make clinicians really

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: listen to understand

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe help change their practice

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: what would that be?

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well up behind me is indigenous planting

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and at the top of it is a word Ngarana

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Ngarana is an aboriginal word

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: which means to listen, to hear and to understand

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and the understanding is

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: once I've listened and heard

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: or showed that I understand by what I do next

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: so talking about it is low grade stuff

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: doing it is what showing that you understand

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: by what you do matters most

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And so for anyone working with people

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: with a system pain we need to listen

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we need to sit with

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we no need to say I'm going to fix you

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I've had people tell me six weeks you'll be fixed

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: so we need that deep listening to not only hear

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: what someone thinks about themselves

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and their situation

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but what's behind that?

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What is their context?

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A context is such an important thing

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a story that I'll tell you Mark about context

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a friend who's a pediatrician

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: working at the best children's hospital in the world

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and 30 years ago she was in emergency

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and this kid came hobbling into emergency

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and severely

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and so they started to triage this kid

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: or go through all of their assessments

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and they ended up running a whole lot of tests

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: blood tests, scans, MRI scans the whole lot

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: like everything was thrown at this kid

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: to try to understand what was the problem with his wobble

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day when they drilled out

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: every sodic disease known to man

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: they were starting to think

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: what else is going on for this kid

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: they called down the head pediatrician

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: who came down looked at the results

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: looked at the kid and asked one question

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that question was, son why are you limping?

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer because grandpa does

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: how's that?

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very easy to make assumptions

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about what somebody is going through

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I can do it in my work

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because I see a cohort of people

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Aboriginal people in prison

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and I could very easily write a script

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: about what's going on in their life

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and what's their story

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and I never go there

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I say hey what's going on?

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about it

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and what a great example of how health care

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: loses the humanity of the situation

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that's one of the things we've railed against

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: time and time again as we get these folks

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that get so involved into this diagnostic process

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: where the person is a diagnosis

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't say well what about the person

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: who's experiencing these symptoms

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: just questions like that one seems like

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: would be so commonsensical

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: why are you limping?

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet they didn't honor that

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe opinions of the matter

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and then next you know that this

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: could have been easily dealt with

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: with a simple question right on the front end

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and probably saved a lot of frustration

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: on all ends of that

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the equation patient health care person as well

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevor I could talk to you for

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to respect your time

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_02]: really we'll make sure we link

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the stuff you spoke to today

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: social profiles or anything

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: if people want to touch base with you

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: where can they find you?

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Any social medias or things that people

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: if they want to reach out that are

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that maybe want to talk or contact you?

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Look I'm on Facebook

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think through Tom's group

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll see my comments

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: people happy to message me

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if we've got a few minutes

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to talk about which is

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what kind of modeling

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: could be done to a clinic

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: when my pain cleared up

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you know

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: timing

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I just had to go

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I said to me what are you of course

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: paying for me

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was working on four weeks

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I went to this clinic

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I walked in

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: looked up and said

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Trevor welcome

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't even know that I was Trevor

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but I was booked in for that time

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I walked by a welcome

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I got a full range of

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: sit down have a cup of tea

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: sitting down looking

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: a whole pile of information

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: about local groups

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: chess groups

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: walking groups

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: cooking groups

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: all of the social connectors

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for that community were up there

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the way that I was treated

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: welcome and this model

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: away from the medical

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: what's wrong with the body

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to ward

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: safe relationship

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: medical activity

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you know we

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you know physiotherapy clinic

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: at lunch time

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: for a walk

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to a cafe

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and sit down and have a coffee

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: nesting people to people

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: just safe movement

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to start enjoyable activities

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: there's things that we can do

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: in a clinic

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that model

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: can enjoy each other

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: there's also a million things about

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: our training

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: which says you know

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: don't be fooled

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: be clinic

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: when I was pain coaching

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: talking to people around the world

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know they saw this

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of a sudden

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the missions were

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: moving away from the desk

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and putting plants behind them

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and pulling down their

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you know sits in their

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: university degrees

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and starting to lighten up

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and be warm and engaged

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what we do

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: we can relationship building

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but we do relationship with our staff

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way that we do relationship

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: with our patients needs to be consistent

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: so that's my encouragement

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah no equal expertise right

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's understanding

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you're sitting across this

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the table or chair from an expert

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: who's the patient

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: who knows their life

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but also

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when somebody can see an empathetic

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: listening caring

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: present individual

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in front of them

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: versus the paternalistic

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: talking down upon somebody

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_02]: healthcare

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and you definitely see that

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in the folks that are working

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: in persistent pain

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and really folks

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: with persistent pain

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: is that whole validation empathy

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to establish

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that good relationship

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to give you the source

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe a social relationship

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: provide some safety

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and empathy

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and validation

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: can be a powerful thing

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: people

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevor again

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank you so

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: much for your time today

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and thank you for joining me

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on the morning here

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: in Australia

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I also want to

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you for what you're doing

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we need more

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Trevers

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And more

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Tom's

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And more

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and Joletta's and Tina's and a lot of the folks we spoke to on the podcast

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_02]: who are lived experiencers who are sharing their experience.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I firmly believe that there's ways to do online communities and then also

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously in-person community.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's one thing we need in our clinics, like you said, is to get

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a community aspect to, to get people out into social worlds that can help

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: support them and give them some of the things they can lean on to

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully navigate some of the rough waters that sometimes their pain puts

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02]: them in.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So again, thank you so much, Trevor.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This has been another episode of the Modern Pain Podcast with Dr.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Mark Karjula.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Join us next time as we continue our journey to help change the story around

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: pain.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: For more information on the show, visit modernpaincare.com.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a substitute for medical advice or treatment.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Please consult a licensed professional for your specific medical needs.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Changing the story around pain.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Modern Pain Podcast.