Mastering Strength and Conditioning in Hockey: Insights from NHL Coach Devan McConnell

[00:00:01] Thank you guys for tuning in for another episode of the Barbell Therapy Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Brett Scott. With me here today is Coach Devin McConnell. He's got quite the background as an NHL strength coach, also at the D1 level, so he's worked with the New Jersey Devils, the Arizona Coyotes, now the Utah Hockey Club, and has really done a lot in the field to make strength and conditioning in hockey much more of an intelligent design than what I think it used to be.

[00:00:31] In the past, and there's a lot I've seen of Devin's work behind the scenes of using data to make decisions about playing hockey and what should be done and when and always kind of having a strong why behind it. So I'm excited to talk about this today. He's also written a book. He's an author of the book Intent, A Practical Approach to Applied Sports Science for Athletic Development. So Devin, thank you for coming on today. We've got a lot of talk about here today.

[00:00:59] So my first experience was with Devin, actually, when I was in my undergrad at UMass Lowell, and I was starting exercise phase and we did a lab on Olympic lifting. And that was the first touch point I had with a barbell doing hang cleans and hang snatches. And you might not know this, but now I'm teaching that at the world level.

[00:01:22] So now I coach for this part of Team USA and I've got a girl on the world championships team that we just competed in Peru. So you sparked a little fire there because something about it was just you were so concise and clear with it and made it seem so simple.

[00:01:39] Yet our whole class was absolutely horrible at it. But there was something in there that I was like, there's way more to this that I want to figure it out and I need to figure out.

[00:01:48] And it kind of I just started going to the gym every day and practicing and practicing and practicing until I got into my own first competition with it and then decided to buy two weightlifting clubs and then got into coaching it.

[00:02:01] And the rest is kind of history from there. So thank you for that coaching moment there.

[00:02:07] I don't know if you ever knew you had that. That's cool. No, I had no idea. And that's that's really cool to hear because, you know, from a weightlifting, very specifically weightlifting perspective, I'm really not much of a weightlifting coach.

[00:02:22] I definitely come from a sports performance utilized weightlifting derivatives perspective. By no means am I an expert. So you are light years ahead of what I was teaching you at the time.

[00:02:33] But that's really cool that I was able to, you know, light a small spark and see where you're at now. So that's really cool.

[00:02:40] Yeah. And we can actually talk about some of that, too, because there are a lot of differences now. Like if I have a hockey player, I'm there is a much different bandwidth of what I expect from them to develop for hockey than what I expect from someone that's actually trying to compete in Olympic lifting.

[00:02:55] So we can talk about that a little bit. But Devin, you have such a background in I remember in school, too. I was doing a lot of work with Dr. Collins behind the scenes on doing all this data tracking with heart rate variability.

[00:03:10] And I think you were trying to make decisions on when to when we should practice when or what intent should this practice have versus where is this in relationship to game time and exploring some of that.

[00:03:23] And then I know you have a lot of background, too, and looking at velocity based training, I believe, too.

[00:03:30] Yeah, it's interesting. Dr. Collins. That's quite the throwback name.

[00:03:35] Yeah, you know, I mean, that's all the name days. But yeah, so heart rate variability and then really looking at at team wide heart rate response with the specifically with the ice hockey team at UMass Hall, probably 15 plus years ago.

[00:03:51] Now, that was one of the first forays for me kind of into the sports science side of, you know, the strength and conditioning area that really sort of catapulted me in that direction of the field.

[00:04:06] And we can kind of probably talk about sort of where my career path sort of took me and where I am now and and what that looks like.

[00:04:13] But that starting to look at those things early on with the ice hockey team and using that type of information to, you know, just because I was curious about really the the internal load and the physiological response to what was happening on the ice and the stress response and sort of the quote unquote readiness of the players.

[00:04:33] You know, like you kind of mentioned, you know, when to push hard, when to back off, how they recovered and when, you know, what practice intensities on different days, you know, sort of accumulated fatigue and trying to figure out what the best practice plan and the best training plan was back then to get us sort of the most prepared to play Friday and Saturday night.

[00:04:59] That was sort of the original, I guess, that was kind of the original question that I was trying to figure out.

[00:05:06] And that's kind of where that that sports science spark for me, I guess, started at UMass Lowell with Dr. Collins and heart rate variability.

[00:05:15] And like I said, team heart rate monitoring, I guess, is what we really were starting to do.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] From my understanding, you were one of the first people in this field to really start to and I might be wrong.

[00:05:29] You can tell me if I'm wrong.

[00:05:30] But to really start to look at how these how we can really put science into sport and do research on hockey players the way you did.

[00:05:40] I don't think anyone's really done much of that before you.

[00:05:42] Correct.

[00:05:43] I don't know if I was the first.

[00:05:47] Probably right time, right place from the standpoint of certainly people had been asking these questions and doing some of this stuff before me.

[00:05:56] But lucky, I guess, in that social media started to happen at the time that I was doing these things.

[00:06:05] And so, you know, whether it be, you know, message boards on the Internet started to become a thing in the strength and conditioning world.

[00:06:12] So all of us started to, you know, communicate with each other and ask questions on, you know, these websites and message boards or, you know, it was, you know, Twitter started to take off or whatever it was.

[00:06:22] So you start to be able to, you know, ask questions or communicate with people all over the world who maybe were also doing these things.

[00:06:32] But maybe it's somebody in Switzerland that was, you know, asking the same question about heart rate response in hockey or in some other team sport.

[00:06:42] And so you start to create these, you know, kind of networks.

[00:06:45] And then, you know, your name starts to get out there because other people are sort of listening in.

[00:06:50] And so it sounds like you're the only one doing this or you're new to doing this.

[00:06:54] And really, there were people before me that were doing these things.

[00:06:56] But you just never knew about it because unless you found some obscure, you know, peer-reviewed journal, you had no idea that they did this.

[00:07:03] But certainly, I think I was probably at the forefront in ice hockey.

[00:07:09] Ice hockey, generally speaking, has been a little bit behind the times in the sports science world.

[00:07:13] So I think I was fortunate enough to kind of learn from people in some other sports where sports science was a little bit more at the forefront in rugby and soccer and things like that,

[00:07:23] where they had been doing those things for a longer period of time.

[00:07:27] So maybe I was a little bit more at the forefront in ice hockey.

[00:07:30] But I certainly wasn't, you know, at the front of the field overall in sports science.

[00:07:34] But yeah, in ice hockey, I think we started to ask these questions.

[00:07:37] And certainly at the collegiate level, I was fortunate to be able to start to do some of these things at UMass Lowell.

[00:07:43] Very modest of you.

[00:07:46] You know, you went into this to be a strength coach, though.

[00:07:49] And like, from my perspective as a student and what you were doing with the team at the time and what it sounds like you're still doing now is you're more of a scientist making decisions about when we do this, how we do it.

[00:08:03] You know, why we're executing in this way versus just let's go in the weight room and get strong.

[00:08:08] That's a much different realm than people think of it.

[00:08:12] Yeah, my role now, I mean, my title is high performance director and essentially what that is, I guess I've transitioned over a number of career hops, I guess, from strength coach to, you know, as my titles have sort of changed to reflect different roles, responsibilities, strength coach to head of hockey performance, to director of performance science, to high performance director.

[00:08:37] And what those transitions have sort of reflected is a move more towards basically what you've said is more towards the utilization of sports science to make decisions and probably less or further away from just being in the weight room, coaching strength and conditioning.

[00:09:01] So I'm certainly still in the weight room.

[00:09:04] I'm still on the floor with our athletes.

[00:09:06] But, you know, my role now is really to oversee a department, a staff of strength coaches, physical therapists, athletic trainers, you know, an entire performance department, sports science and utilize all of the data and sports science technology that we have to make more informed decisions.

[00:09:23] So, you know, from a small scale at UMass Lowell where, you know, I was the strength coach and the nutritionist and sports scientist and I was looking at heart rate stuff.

[00:09:32] Well, now I'm still looking at heart rate stuff and GPS stuff and force plates and all of that.

[00:09:38] But I'm probably doing less of the actual coaching in the weight room.

[00:09:43] I'm doing less of the, you know, analyzing nutrition and, you know, ordering food and making smoothies.

[00:09:49] And we just have a bigger staff that everybody is more of a specialist in those areas.

[00:09:53] And my role is to kind of create the direction for everybody to follow as a group and really to hone in on the data and the science of it.

[00:10:05] Yeah. So let's get into some training stuff.

[00:10:07] So hockey is to me and I'm a hockey player myself, such a unique sport of it's a long season.

[00:10:14] There's frequent sessions or frequent games.

[00:10:17] It's high intensity, high speed.

[00:10:20] There's collisions.

[00:10:21] You got to be ready to get hit by a truck when you least expect it.

[00:10:25] You need coordination, reaction time, change of directions constantly.

[00:10:30] Um, and there's a huge demand on the hips too, which isn't the most orthopedically sound or friendly as some would say in, in the, in our field of rehab and physical therapy.

[00:10:42] So there's a lot we have to talk about here.

[00:10:44] So, um, in general, for those that are, you know, from youth through high school and maybe even college, where do you think in the field of strength and conditioning,

[00:10:55] we're doing better in the past 10 years versus where do you think we're still missing the boat on things or whether it be parents, coaches or athletes that are listening?

[00:11:04] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:11:06] It's a tough question because I think there's, there's definitely different factions in strength and conditioning and, you know, in different places.

[00:11:12] And I think different groups or different, you know, people are doing things better and worse, right?

[00:11:18] Some parts of the field, I think, um, I think are very progressive and are, are doing things really intelligently and are moving forward really rapidly.

[00:11:29] Um, and I think, you know, the opposite is true.

[00:11:31] I think there's some parts of the field, unfortunately, that are kind of regressing and moving backwards.

[00:11:36] But the, the, the folks in the areas that I see people moving forward, um, I think what you see happening is those individuals or those groups of coaches are, um, are respecting, starting to understand and respect, you know, functional anatomy, um, as a, as a term.

[00:11:57] Understanding how the human body, um, operates in real life in, you know, in sport.

[00:12:04] Um, I think, uh, you know, people like yourself who have, uh, an understanding from a physical therapy perspective, I think are, um, at the forefront of that because that type of education and knowledge to understand, uh, beyond just, and, you know, I'm my background, I'm a strength and conditioning coach.

[00:12:23] Like I'm, my background is, you know, that's where I come from playing and banging the weight room.

[00:12:28] But the reality is like, if you don't, if you can't progress a mindset beyond that to understand that some of the things that we have traditionally done in the weight room, um, from a strength power sport perspective are not necessarily the things that are, um, functionally beneficial to a, uh, multi-dimensional, uh, three-dimensional movement pattern sport.

[00:12:53] Like hockey, like a lot of other team sports.

[00:12:56] Um, then I think those are the, those are the, the factions that are probably still falling behind the individuals, the coaches, the training programs that are understanding, um, that sports and life happen.

[00:13:11] And, uh, in multiple planes and three planes of motion to understand orthopedic costs to understand things like the skating stride is not naturally, uh, it's not beneficial to the human body.

[00:13:24] It is not, it's not how we're supposed to move.

[00:13:26] So it's not good for your hips, right?

[00:13:29] It's not like the more you skate, uh, as a player, the more you butterfly as a goalie, like the more wear and tear you're going to have, because it's just not how the hip is designed to move.

[00:13:39] It certainly can do it.

[00:13:40] We do do it when we play hockey, but there's going to be a consequence to that.

[00:13:45] So it's the coaches, um, the training systems that understand those things and think about those things I think are progressing.

[00:13:53] And I think there are a lot of really smart people in the field that are moving in that direction, whether you have a physical therapy background or not.

[00:14:00] If you think in those ways, if you analyze sporting movement and understand the biomechanics of sport, if you understand the, the, um, the energy system demands of the sport, if you look at those things, um, and get outside the lanes of just, you know, traditional, you know, just powerlifting, just Olympic lifting, uh, as the only tools to develop athleticism.

[00:14:25] I think there's lots of great takeaways from both of those sports for a lot of team sports, but they're not the only ones.

[00:14:32] Absolutely.

[00:14:34] Um, and so this is something we could discuss this at the end too, maybe, but how does the focus on development start, um, or change rather in the major milestones of someone going from high school to maybe prep school juniors?

[00:14:54] Um, to maybe AHL NHL level.

[00:14:57] How does things, how should things be progressing for these kids?

[00:15:02] Yeah.

[00:15:02] I mean, I'm a big multi-sport, uh, advocate at younger ages.

[00:15:07] I think, um, up until, you know, I don't think there's a, an exact age, but, you know, early adolescence, let's just say that.

[00:15:15] Like, I really, I'm a big advocate of, of, uh, kids, um, engaging in multiple sports.

[00:15:22] Um, I think it's important to not necessarily, uh, having to be competitive in multiple sports.

[00:15:29] I think it's, I think the reality of North American, uh, youth sports is, you know, you're, if you're good at something, you're going to get pushed into playing, you know, one, you know, it's a talkie.

[00:15:41] Like you're going to be on the travel team.

[00:15:43] And if you want to be good at that, you're going to play, have to play that sport.

[00:15:46] But in the off season, like you should not skate all summer.

[00:15:50] You should play baseball or you should play soccer, lacrosse or gymnastics or weightlifting or, you know, do other things or just get out on your bike and, you know, be a kid.

[00:16:01] Absolutely.

[00:16:02] A hundred percent.

[00:16:03] Um, I think that that's huge.

[00:16:05] Like that is the foundation of athleticism.

[00:16:08] And I think just good human movement.

[00:16:13] Um, I'm, I'm a big advocate of that.

[00:16:15] I think then as you start to progress and you get into, you know, adolescence, I think, you know, it's a, it's a pyramid.

[00:16:21] It starts to sharpen.

[00:16:23] And if you're really good at something and the kid is passionate about something, then you start to, you know, spend more time in that sport.

[00:16:31] And then I think that's where, you know, you start to layer in, uh, strength and conditioning and you start to learn how to train and you start to develop those qualities that are going to start to be more important.

[00:16:42] Um, I still think again, specifically to hockey, I think, um, I think off season should be off season.

[00:16:51] I think it's important from a health standpoint, not to play hockey all year round.

[00:16:56] I don't think that means you don't skate at all in the off season, but I mean, the reality is like our NHL players, they don't skate for the most part for a couple of months at the end of the season.

[00:17:06] Maybe they get on the ice once or twice a week with a skills coach, but they're not playing hockey.

[00:17:11] They're not going to tournaments.

[00:17:12] They're not on the ice four days a week.

[00:17:14] Um, until, you know, this time of year right now is when they start to skate more.

[00:17:20] Like that's when the best players in the world, um, know that they need to start skating.

[00:17:26] And they know that prior to that, they need to take some time away.

[00:17:29] And I think that whether you're, you know, a high school hockey player, junior hockey player, for the most part, it's the same thing.

[00:17:36] You need to be developing yourself as an athlete.

[00:17:38] If you're 16, 17, 18, like you need to be developing yourself physically during that timeframe.

[00:17:44] And what I see when athletes do follow that pathway, when they take time away from the sport and come back, they have light year.

[00:17:55] They've jumped light years ahead from a skill perspective.

[00:17:58] If there's something that happens cognitively, um, physically, once they shake the rust off, all of a sudden they make these huge strides that, um,

[00:18:11] that I think people worry that they will be behind because they're not out there doing their sport five days a week.

[00:18:19] But what happens is there's something that they absorb something from, you know, from the past season when they step away, all of a sudden, all of that comes together and they make these big jumps.

[00:18:31] But if they're on the ice or, you know, if it's a soccer player, if they're on the pitch all summer long or all off season long baseball, it's the same thing.

[00:18:39] You just don't get a chance to kind of absorb all that and you just get ground down and ground down and ground down.

[00:18:46] Yeah.

[00:18:46] And it's, I think it, you know, hockey culture growing up, like it's between the parents and the kids, like it's a very competitive culture.

[00:18:55] Um, besides gymnastics, gymnastics is a, is a crazy competitive culture, but it's always.

[00:19:01] And when I was growing up, it was like, there was the, the start of all the select teams and everything.

[00:19:06] And then it was like, oh, well, so-and-so is going to this team.

[00:19:08] And then so-and-so is doing this summer camp.

[00:19:11] And so-and-so was working with this coach and this, they're going to this conditioning camp.

[00:19:15] And it's like, before you know it, everyone's just trying to keep up with the Joneses with their kids of, well, all these other kids are doing this stuff.

[00:19:20] I feel like my kid needs to do it too.

[00:19:23] And it might not be the answer is what you're saying.

[00:19:26] I, I, I, it really isn't.

[00:19:28] I get it.

[00:19:29] Listen, I have kids.

[00:19:30] My son is 10 and he's starting to get into that.

[00:19:33] Like other kids are, you know, he's a 10 year old hockey player.

[00:19:37] He's goalie.

[00:19:38] He's pretty decent.

[00:19:39] Um, other kids are, we don't let him skate all summer and other kids skate all summer and they're coming back.

[00:19:45] And at this age, yeah, they're, they're better because they're getting more reps.

[00:19:50] But then halfway through the season, like they're not better because they're just, they're tired and they don't want to be out there and they're burnt out.

[00:19:58] And he's just in love with it halfway through the year and he's making strides.

[00:20:02] And, and I just know I can, I can just honestly tell you most of the players in the NHL, most of the players on our team, there's exceptions.

[00:20:11] Listen, there are exceptions to the rule, but I can honestly tell you most of the guys that come across in my career, um, they'll tell you the same.

[00:20:18] They're like, yeah, I shot a lot of pucks in the summer and played roller hockey.

[00:20:22] And yeah, I played on a, this tournament team twice a summer.

[00:20:26] We'd go and, you know, kick all these teams ass in some tournament in Toronto or whatever.

[00:20:32] But like I play once a week with my buddies and that's what we would do in the summer until, you know, late July, August.

[00:20:38] And then, yeah, we got back to work and most of them played other sports most of the time, you know, until they're okay.

[00:20:45] You get to be 17, 18 and it's, you know, close to your draft year.

[00:20:49] And if you're that good, but most of them were playing other sports.

[00:20:52] Most of them were in the gym.

[00:20:53] Um, you know, yeah, they did some skating lessons once or twice a week, a skill session here and there.

[00:20:59] Um, most of them, that's, that was the pathway.

[00:21:04] Yeah.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:05] And so, yeah.

[00:21:06] And we see this with all sports.

[00:21:07] So at what age do you think people or kids should start to specialize and maybe put a little more emphasis into taking hockey more seriously and letting other sports go behind?

[00:21:17] Yeah.

[00:21:18] I mean, I think it's, I think it's, if there's a passion there and, you know, there's a genuine, um, you know, a genuine level of, um, sort of natural skill that's there and that's the kid's really good.

[00:21:35] And yeah, probably, probably 15, 16.

[00:21:38] It's like, okay, if there's really something there and they're really, they love it and there's really, they're special and there's, you know, there's some talent there.

[00:21:47] It's like, okay, like let's put some, let's put some real effort into it at this point.

[00:21:52] But if there's no foundation before that, you're going to, you're swimming upstream at that point because what'll happen is if you've, if you've been on the ice five days a week since you were 10 and you get to 15 and you don't have this foundation of strength and this, uh, you know, foundation of athleticism from playing other sports and jumping out of trees and riding bikes and doing all that stuff.

[00:22:17] Right.

[00:22:18] Like the wheels start to fall off.

[00:22:20] You start to get these little injuries that you shouldn't be getting at 15 or 16.

[00:22:24] You start to get all these little growing things and little knee issues and little back issues.

[00:22:29] And when you start to get those at 15 or 16, instead of at 22 or 23, right?

[00:22:36] Like the mileage is starting to wear, wear you down.

[00:22:39] And that's where you, like, we see it when you look at, um, like kind of in the scouting side of the field.

[00:22:47] Um, when we're looking at athletes for, you know, through the combine and drafting and things like that, you see these players that that's the pathway they've taken and they are super, super skilled, but they're 17 going into their draft year.

[00:23:00] And it's like, they are not robust.

[00:23:04] They are, you know, they're built like a 13 year old and they're falling apart.

[00:23:09] And it's like, uh, I don't know if they're going to make it because they're just fall, you know, their bodies can't take this anymore.

[00:23:15] They're, they're, they're a 30 year old body, you know, or they have 30 year old injuries in a, in a 14 year old body.

[00:23:24] And they're 18.

[00:23:25] It's like, are we going to, are we going to take a chance on this?

[00:23:28] Probably not, you know, and then they don't make it.

[00:23:31] And so on that, do you think the, the, so the 17 year old having the 30 year old body, could some of that be prevented from strength training and putting on size and building durability and robustness?

[00:23:47] Or is it just, they're playing too much hockey?

[00:23:50] Well, that's, and that's what I mean.

[00:23:51] I mean, I don't mean, I don't mean the 30 year old body, like they're a man.

[00:23:55] I mean, like they're like 30 year old beaten down.

[00:23:59] Like, you know, we have 30 year old veterans that are walk around like they're 50.

[00:24:03] Cause like, Hey, if you're playing the NHL at 30, you're, yeah.

[00:24:06] Like you're there, they're like frail and, and beaten down at a hundred percent.

[00:24:12] Like those are the, those are the guys that like, they can't do a pushup.

[00:24:17] Like they can't, they're, they're physically very immature.

[00:24:20] Sure.

[00:24:21] Because all they have really done is develop on the skill side.

[00:24:26] So the skill side of what they have is very high at that relative age, but the physical maturity side is very, very low.

[00:24:36] So the body just takes it.

[00:24:38] It takes a beating, takes a toll.

[00:24:40] And so that's where those kids, you know, that's where I say, like you get into early adolescence, you start to be in the gym, start to learn how to train.

[00:24:50] So I think if you've, you know, develop those athletic development qualities in a good strength and conditioning program, by the time you're 16, 17, 18.

[00:25:00] Now you're very, you know, you're robust.

[00:25:03] Like you have a good, you have good, as we would say, movement literacy, right?

[00:25:08] That's when, for us, like when we're looking at, you know, drafting players and developing players and bringing people into our organization.

[00:25:14] Um, that's, those are the exciting players to us because we know that they're on a, a pathway that's going to allow them from a physical perspective to, to be able to play at this level.

[00:25:28] Absolutely.

[00:25:29] And so when we're looking at this too, right, we really have to, the way I kind of decided to look at this for today was we have major buckets of performance and development, right?

[00:25:42] So there's off ice training, there's on ice training, in season and off season, nutrition, recovery.

[00:25:51] And, um, when we're looking at these, what, what considerations should people be making for the differences in the seasons or in whether they're in season or off season?

[00:26:05] And what should the different focuses be?

[00:26:08] I mean, I think it depends a lot on age and level, right?

[00:26:12] I'll start, I'll start at the NHL level, um, in season training in the NHL.

[00:26:18] So, uh, our schedule in the NHL, we play almost every other day for about seven months.

[00:26:26] So I think we average three, it's like 3.2 games per week or something like that.

[00:26:34] So our, our training in season, at least our approach to it, we call it micro dosing.

[00:26:40] We train almost every day.

[00:26:43] Um, but our training is, it might be three to four exercises, one to three sets.

[00:26:51] Um, you know, literally 10 to 15 minutes total.

[00:26:56] 15 minutes would be quite a long time in the gym.

[00:26:59] So we literally, if it's a practice day, uh, after the team has a meeting, they're going to come into the gym.

[00:27:05] Uh, we're essentially going to, we're going to roll stretch, go through our warmup or mobility work.

[00:27:11] Um, depending on the sort of the theme of the day, they might do a couple of medicine ball throws, a couple of plyometrics, uh, maybe a, a dumbbell bench press.

[00:27:22] And, um, uh, trap bar jump, maybe, maybe two sets of that.

[00:27:27] And then they're going to go skate and practice, right?

[00:27:29] Um, if it's a game day, we'll have a warmup before pregame skate.

[00:27:34] There'll be some warmup, some activation stuff before the game post game.

[00:27:38] We'll have a lift.

[00:27:39] It'll be again, maybe two exercises might be a rear foot elevated split squat for two sets of three and, um, weighted chin up for two sets of three.

[00:27:49] So it's literally like, we're, it's just little touches almost every day.

[00:27:52] You're just trying to, I hate the idea of maintaining, trying to say maintain strength, but honestly in the NHL, that's what you're trying to do.

[00:28:00] And if you ever have two days in a row of practice, maybe you dose a little bit more and just try to catch up a little bit, but it's, you're trying to, you're just trying to be as prepared as possible to play the next day.

[00:28:13] It's, it's about optimization for playing.

[00:28:15] It's really not about development at that point.

[00:28:17] Um, so that's, that's the NHL in season in the off season.

[00:28:21] It's like the off season at any other level.

[00:28:23] We're trying to develop qualities.

[00:28:25] So, uh, we profile our players.

[00:28:27] What are you really good at?

[00:28:28] What are you not good at?

[00:28:30] Depending on their age and kind of level, if they're younger developmental players, we're more focused on what are you not good at?

[00:28:36] So most of those guys are still get stronger, get faster, get bigger.

[00:28:40] Um, if you're older, it's more, okay, what makes you really good?

[00:28:44] Let's get you back to being healthy.

[00:28:46] And then if you're a really fast guy, let's get you back to being real fast.

[00:28:50] If you're big power forward, like let's make sure you're strong, whatever it is.

[00:28:53] Like, let's just make sure you're good at what you're good at back in college.

[00:28:58] Uh, at that level, um, it was a little bit more developmental in season.

[00:29:03] So we would still kind of train a little bit every day.

[00:29:06] Um, but there was more of sort of two big, more big kind of, um, heavier lifts per week.

[00:29:14] We were pushing in, this is in season.

[00:29:17] Uh, we were pushing to get better, to get stronger, to get faster, um, for at least half of the in season period.

[00:29:24] So basically from the start of the school year through this past kind of Christmas break, um,

[00:29:30] we would still push pretty hard to try to develop physical qualities and get better.

[00:29:34] Second half of the season, we would taper down a little bit more.

[00:29:37] Um, especially if we thought that we could make a good playoff run and we were more focused on speed and power, but we were still training.

[00:29:44] We were consistent three to four times a week, all season long in the college setting in the off season.

[00:29:51] Again, very much developmental.

[00:29:53] We were four to five times a week.

[00:29:55] Um, uh, we focused very, we training was a big piece of our, our puzzle.

[00:30:00] Um, so, um, strengthening conditioning was a big piece.

[00:30:03] Um, and then younger than that, when it's high school age, um, it's like, I would say, you know, it would be very similar to the college setting.

[00:30:12] Like if you're not training in season, you are missing a huge opportunity to make improvements.

[00:30:18] Um, you're a, it's a long part of the year.

[00:30:22] So if you're skipping out on training in season, like that's a massive chunk of your year that you're just not taking advantage.

[00:30:30] Um, and what happens, this is the thing that, that people don't understand is even if you in season, if at worst, if you start here and you just stay the same.

[00:30:45] So you can get better in season, but even if you don't, if you just stay the same until the end of the season, the next off season, you go like this.

[00:30:54] But if you start here in season and you go like this, then at the end of the season, next off season, all you can do is get back to where you were.

[00:31:02] And so, you know, high school for four years, you basically don't ever get better.

[00:31:07] So the worst case scenario, if you train in season is every off season, you make jumps, right?

[00:31:13] The reality is especially the high school age and for the most part, college age, um, you're going to get better in season because of your, because of hormones, because of your age, because of all of that.

[00:31:27] Like you're just, you just naturally, you'll get stronger, you'll get faster.

[00:31:31] Um, it's just the reality.

[00:31:32] When you get older and you get to my age, you just get worse all the time.

[00:31:35] It doesn't matter.

[00:31:36] But when you're, when you're younger and then younger than that.

[00:31:40] So, you know, when you're just learning, you know, middle school and kind of a little bit younger, that's learn to train.

[00:31:46] Like that's, you know, that's where you're learning how to do things the right way and, um, technique and that stuff.

[00:31:52] And that's a super important part of the foundation that allows you to do those things.

[00:31:55] But so sort of working backwards to the start, like that's kind of what the process to me should look like.

[00:32:03] It's a very good description of it.

[00:32:04] I liked all you had to say there.

[00:32:07] Um, and so that's very interesting though.

[00:32:10] So these guys will play a full hockey game, a professional level hockey game.

[00:32:15] And then you guys end at 10 o'clock at night and then they got to go hit the weight room.

[00:32:19] Even though it's short.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:22] Yeah.

[00:32:23] I mean, it's most teams do that.

[00:32:24] There's a few that have kind of some different philosophies and do things differently, but it's fairly common.

[00:32:29] Um, honestly in the NHL and the NBA is very similar as well.

[00:32:33] Um, major league baseball is the same idea, but they'll actually lift before games.

[00:32:37] But the, the idea really is that because you play almost every other day, um, you don't want to train sort of heavy the day before a game.

[00:32:48] Cause you're going to be, you know, create some fatigue.

[00:32:51] So after the game, obviously you're, you're warmed up, right?

[00:32:54] Everybody you're very warmed up and it's the longest period of time before the next game.

[00:33:00] So you have the longest amount of time to recover from it.

[00:33:03] Um, and it's very low dose.

[00:33:05] Like again, it's at most, it would, most would be three sets.

[00:33:09] If we had a guy that, you know, fourth line played six minutes, he might do an extra, but it's very, very low dose.

[00:33:15] But, but because we do it very consistently, it's very, very manageable.

[00:33:19] So it's just very consistent guys come in, bang, bang, bang, two sets, you know, touch three exercises.

[00:33:26] They're in there for seven minutes and they're out and it's just part of the routine.

[00:33:30] And so if you happen to look at most, you know, high school, college level strength and conditioning programs that maybe aren't D1, but like a D3 school or something.

[00:33:41] Um, and in my mind, just in general, from people's own understanding of bodybuilding, the volume is way too high for in season.

[00:33:51] I've always found that there's already so much power and explosion you're doing, um, within the sport that my view is we need to touch these things to keep them fresh and keep them maintained.

[00:34:03] But we don't need to do all this like bodybuilding volume type stuff or, you know, reps of 10 on deadlifts to build legs during season.

[00:34:15] You're not.

[00:34:15] Oh, couldn't agree more.

[00:34:17] Yeah.

[00:34:18] I don't know that we would ever do, man, we, if we did something over five or six reps in season, I mean, unless we're doing some type of, you know, body weight mobility thing, you know,

[00:34:32] but like a loaded any, anything from a strength development or power exercise, it's, it's twos, threes, maybe fours, you know, again, two to three, two to three sets, very low volume.

[00:34:47] Um, intensity intent is, is the name of the game.

[00:34:51] It's not volume by any means.

[00:34:53] Yeah, I agree.

[00:34:54] And so what would you, so in season, like where should their intensity ranges be?

[00:34:59] Like, are you like, if we're talking like an RPE scale, maybe like, are they pushing to an eight or are they pushing to a six?

[00:35:06] Is it just where, where are we at?

[00:35:09] Yeah.

[00:35:09] Um, we're, we're, we'll like, we'll let athletes be pretty, uh, flexible with that just because again, it's, it's going to be very subjective post game based on where they're at, what they've done, what they've gone through.

[00:35:24] Um, yeah, exactly.

[00:35:26] But yeah, I mean, I, I think in a perfect world, um, if it's a, um, if, if it's a strength exercise, like for us, like our primary strength development exercises are going to be, you know, generally like, uh, uh, rear foot elevated split squat, like a safety bar split squat.

[00:35:45] Um, uh, usually like a dumbbell bench press weighted chin up, uh, dumbbell row, those types of things.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:55] You're looking at like a seven RPE probably.

[00:35:59] You're not killing yourself.

[00:36:00] It wouldn't, you're not killing yourself, but like it would, it would not be unusual to see our athletes on the safety bar RFE with anywhere between.

[00:36:13] 225 and 315 for doubles.

[00:36:16] Like just come in, pop, pop, bang it out, you know?

[00:36:20] And if you've, you know, if you've done those and develop that exercise, like, you know, that that's, that's significant, but also not at all.

[00:36:30] Like out of the range of like, that's not, it's not a wild amount of weight.

[00:36:35] Oh no.

[00:36:36] So I'll tell you from my own experience.

[00:36:39] So following you and just watching you post SSB RFEs every day, almost quite some time when I was at UMass.

[00:36:46] Well, I was like, there's gotta be something here.

[00:36:48] I'm going to start doing these.

[00:36:49] Right.

[00:36:49] So, and so I have cam lesions in both my hips, um, from playing hockey year round and being a catcher in baseball probably didn't help me, but, um,

[00:36:59] sure.

[00:37:01] The, so squats all like a bilateral squat has always bugged both my hips and I get impingement.

[00:37:06] But, um, so my best squat is like around four or five.

[00:37:11] It's nothing special when I can deadlift 550, but rear foot elevated, I got the four 15 for three on each leg.

[00:37:18] No problem.

[00:37:19] Not even that hard.

[00:37:20] So the, uh, the bilateral deficit for me is definitely real.

[00:37:24] You can push those.

[00:37:25] And I think that's one thing too, is we put people under it.

[00:37:28] So based on that exercise, I think a lot of people, um, underestimate how strong they can be on one leg in that movement.

[00:37:37] Cause I squat this, I must have to do less than half of what I could do on two legs.

[00:37:44] It's like, no, no, like we're primed to be in this position.

[00:37:47] We're stronger here.

[00:37:49] Um, so I see a lot of people just, even my good athletes, like my power lifters that are squatting in the five, six hundreds.

[00:37:57] So I'm like, Mike, you can, you can do more than 75 pounds there, pal.

[00:38:01] I know it's an accessory lift, but like, come on.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:05] Um, yeah.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] And so I've seen people put a lot of, a lot of numbers up with them when they realize like, oh, this is, yeah, you can power through this.

[00:38:15] Yeah.

[00:38:16] Now, what are your thoughts too on bilateral movements for hockey players, like squats and deadlifts?

[00:38:23] Yeah.

[00:38:24] I mean, again, I think mostly from a strength development standpoint or a strength exercise standpoint, we tend to be mostly unilateral based or, you know, split stance based.

[00:38:36] Um, a lot of our power stuff will still be bilateral.

[00:38:40] We'll do a lot of loaded jumps.

[00:38:42] We'll still, uh, we'll still do, you know, bilateral plyos.

[00:38:45] Um, we don't Olympic lift really anybody, but that's, it's not an anti Olympic lift by any means.

[00:38:52] It's just a logistics issue.

[00:38:55] And most of our players, you know, just aren't familiar enough with it.

[00:39:00] Uh, and we don't have enough time with them, but if we did like absolutely would Olympic lift guys.

[00:39:06] Um, so there's no issue there from a power perspective, I think bilateral stuff's still great.

[00:39:12] I just don't, we don't bilateral squat almost anybody for exactly what you talked about.

[00:39:17] Like pretty much everybody in the hockey community at this level is going to have some hip pathology and are just not going to respond well to loaded, heavily loaded bilateral, uh, bilateral squatting patterns.

[00:39:32] Um, we'll still do, you know, lower load stuff more from a mobility standpoint and some, you know, decreased range of motion stuff.

[00:39:40] We'll still trap our deadlift from time to time in certain phases, but mostly if it's like our heavy strength work, um, more or less, we're going to be in unilateral stances.

[00:39:53] So you just said too, so you guys aren't doing Olympic lifting variations now when you were at UMass low though, you guys did a lot of Olympic lifting.

[00:40:02] variations.

[00:40:03] Correct.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:04] We only think lifted all the time at Lowell.

[00:40:06] Um, it's just a different beast in pro hockey.

[00:40:08] You just don't have the, you don't have the training time that you do in college to, uh, to teach.

[00:40:16] You have you guys coming from all over the world with different training backgrounds.

[00:40:20] Um, yeah.

[00:40:22] And, and in the college setting, you just have lots of time to teach how you want people to do it.

[00:40:27] So it's a really good setting to be able to do something that's more technically, uh, demanding.

[00:40:32] And the pro setting is just a lot trickier to do that.

[00:40:36] So it's still, is it still in the best interest of most players here in the U S to get used to and, and learn how to hang clean, hang snatch, things like that, or power, power, hang clean, power, hang snatch.

[00:40:49] Yeah.

[00:40:50] Yeah.

[00:40:50] A thousand percent.

[00:40:51] If I was, if I was in your shoes, if I'm running a private setting, if I'm back in the college setting, it's right back in the arsenal.

[00:40:58] Just in, in the pro setting here.

[00:41:00] It's just, we've had players that are that competent Olympic lifters.

[00:41:04] And then we will put that right back in the program.

[00:41:07] Most just aren't, uh, in, in the setting.

[00:41:10] That's the only reason why.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] That's interesting.

[00:41:12] Cause I feel like most collegiate players, like I've always tried to prep my high school kids and stuff that want to go play college.

[00:41:19] Like, Hey, there's a good chance you're going to need to do hang cleans in the weight room.

[00:41:23] So like, let's make sure you're ready for that.

[00:41:25] And you're at least familiar with the movement by the time you leave here.

[00:41:28] Um, but that's interesting that people make it to the pros and they're not familiar with it.

[00:41:32] So, but I guess, yeah.

[00:41:36] Our, our collegiate guys, guys that come out of college usually do know how to Olympic lift.

[00:41:42] But the other thing that you end up getting is by the time they get to us, their wrists and shoulders are so banged up that they can't get into those positions a lot of times.

[00:41:50] So even if they did in college, they now, they have limitations that just prevent them from doing it.

[00:41:56] Well, that makes sense.

[00:41:58] Okay.

[00:41:58] Um, and then what would the frequency be of Olympic lifting for you guys in the like high school college setting?

[00:42:06] Uh, so when I was in the college setting, we would typically Olympic lift, uh, we would Olympic lift twice per week.

[00:42:15] Um, or some, some variation, we would do some type of loaded power work two to three times per week.

[00:42:24] So usually that would be Olympic lifts and, or something like trap bar jumps or some type of loaded jump.

[00:42:31] So if what we were doing was Olympic lifts, it would be twice a week.

[00:42:37] And yeah, with those lifts.

[00:42:39] So you did a lot with velocity based training too.

[00:42:43] Um, so with that being said, we could, I guess you could look at this for a few different ways, but, um, for the sake of practicality,

[00:42:53] uh, would, uh, would, how do I say this?

[00:42:59] Um, like, are you trying to get people as strong as you can with the Olympic lifts to lift as much as they can?

[00:43:06] Or is it more about speed and power development where they're lifting more in the submaximal ranges just to learn to get faster and more explosive?

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] Typically more on that end of the spectrum.

[00:43:19] Um, more on, we would use Olympic lifts more from a, uh, like a speed strength perspective.

[00:43:28] So when we would use velocity based training with those types of lifts or other power based lifts, um, we prescribed speeds that we would want them to hit, um, more on the velocity side than the strength side of the equation.

[00:43:45] Because we were using those to kind of surf the speed side of the curve.

[00:43:50] And then we would use more, you know, strength based single leg exercises to surf more on the strength end of the spectrum.

[00:43:58] Um, so we wouldn't, we wouldn't really use the Olympic lifts to work into, you know, above, let's just say above 85%, right.

[00:44:09] Of a, an estimated one RM.

[00:44:11] We probably wouldn't push past that very often.

[00:44:14] We'd probably be more in a 65 to 75% range and the associated speeds that would be in there.

[00:44:22] Interesting.

[00:44:23] Those are good facts for, uh, for, for me to know there for future, uh, hockey players here.

[00:44:28] And then I guess velocity based training too.

[00:44:30] Like, is it practical for a lot of people to try to access and get their hands on?

[00:44:36] And is that like the preferred way of training or is this just the best way to do it logistically for an entire team?

[00:44:45] Yeah.

[00:44:45] I mean, I think it's, it's six of one half dozen the other.

[00:44:48] I don't, I don't think it's necessarily a better way to do things.

[00:44:52] What it does allow you to do again is, is just change the focus of whatever particular lift you're doing from being just based on poundage.

[00:45:02] Which is fine, uh, or, you know, percentages, which is fine depending on what the goal is.

[00:45:10] Um, and we'll still utilize that depending on the goal.

[00:45:14] Just, it's just a different mindset.

[00:45:16] It's based on trying to move at a certain speed.

[00:45:19] Um, I like using velocity on power-based exercises still, uh, again, for us, that's going to be more when we're doing speed strength work or, um, you know, loaded jumps and things like that.

[00:45:32] Where I want our athletes focused more on their speed of movement.

[00:45:36] And we're not necessarily worried about or thinking about loading the bar as much as possible.

[00:45:42] Um, and we can also use that, um, velocity-based training to kind of auto-regulate.

[00:45:47] So, um, we can give them a range of speed to stay within.

[00:45:51] And if they're faster than that, then they know they need to add a little bit of weight to slow down.

[00:45:55] If they're a little bit slower, they take a little weight off.

[00:45:58] So wherever they're at that day, it helps guide them as opposed to saying, Hey, today you're 80%.

[00:46:04] And no matter where they are coming in that day, if they're gassed or if they're flying, 80% is the bar weight.

[00:46:11] It's going to be the bar weight.

[00:46:11] So again, six of one half dozen, the other, it's not better or worse.

[00:46:15] It's just a little bit different way to do it.

[00:46:17] But I tend to use it more when we're looking at power-based stuff on our more strength-based, you know, we're in a max strength phase.

[00:46:25] We don't really use it.

[00:46:26] It's more about putting weight on the bar and moving that consistently.

[00:46:30] But it's just which tool do you want to use when?

[00:46:33] Yeah, it sounds like it definitely makes more sense to use in-season because, like, one thing we'll use too with our athletes can be jump height or RSV, I think, as we call it.

[00:46:47] So, yeah, reactive jump scores, basically, of how high can you jump that day.

[00:46:52] And it's like, okay, if you're coming in and your power is down by 10% today on a jump, we probably know your Olympic lifts are probably going to move slower too.

[00:47:03] So, and especially in-season, depending on minutes and everything, it sounds like a more objective way to track, like, what you should be doing that day versus we could all probably hit 75%, 80% to 80% and make the lift.

[00:47:18] But are we getting out of it what we're supposed to be?

[00:47:20] Because 80% when you're fresh might feel much different after, you know, two games in a row, two nights in a row and not getting a night's sleep.

[00:47:29] It's probably, it's a little bit more nuanced than, you know, the jump height, but it's the same principle.

[00:47:35] It's the same concept.

[00:47:36] Yeah.

[00:47:37] It's the same idea.

[00:47:39] So, yeah.

[00:47:39] The fresher you are, the faster you typically are going to move for the most part.

[00:47:44] Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:45] And so, what else do we have here?

[00:47:50] We just went off on some tangents here.

[00:47:52] So, I guess a big thing too, I know we have a time limit here.

[00:48:00] The recovery side of things is probably still, everyone talks about it and everyone wants to do all these fancy things.

[00:48:08] But I remember you always being big about like breathing and like post-session regulation, parasympathetic nervous system.

[00:48:19] What things should people be doing now?

[00:48:21] Because I know for me, when I play a 10 o'clock game and then you're not home till midnight on a Tuesday, it's hard to fall asleep still.

[00:48:30] Even though it's late and I've been up working all day.

[00:48:32] So, what things should people be focused on with the recovery side of things?

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:38] Well, sleep is the most important recovery tool that we have for sure.

[00:48:43] So, prioritizing that.

[00:48:45] But yeah, I mean, getting to sleep is the hard part after 10 o'clock game, right?

[00:48:49] That's the trick.

[00:48:52] Diaphragmatic breathing, as you brought up, can be really, really, really beneficial.

[00:48:56] So, one of the things that we try to sort of teach, educate our players on is using different breathing techniques.

[00:49:04] There's a lot of different ways to skin the cat.

[00:49:07] But basically, you know, deep diaphragmatic breathing, slowing your heart rate helps to shift from sympathetic, you know, fight or flight state to parasympathetic rest and digest state.

[00:49:20] That helps to kind of slow down your nervous system, calm you down.

[00:49:25] That can be a really beneficial tool.

[00:49:27] So, there's, you know, whether it's box breathing or belly breathing or, you know, there's a ton of different ways that you can do that.

[00:49:35] And, you know, anybody that's listening can kind of Google diaphragmatic breathing and you'll learn all kinds of different techniques.

[00:49:40] But that's a really important and simple way to kind of self-regulate some of that stuff that can be very, very beneficial from a recovery process.

[00:49:52] Is there – so, box breathing is big and I use that a lot for people.

[00:49:56] There's a ton of apps.

[00:49:57] It's pretty easy to do.

[00:49:58] It teaches them something new.

[00:50:00] Is there a certain, like, tempo you would prescribe to most people?

[00:50:05] I'm just kidding.

[00:50:07] I'd have to look back, to be honest with you.

[00:50:09] It's been a while since I've dug into that stuff.

[00:50:13] Yeah, I don't know offhand, to be honest.

[00:50:16] We did a lot of, like, leg-elevated breathing, a lot of, like, hands-on belly, leg-elevated breathing to help get just blood flow, kind of lymph, lymphatic drainage back.

[00:50:32] And then just regulating into your nose, like, long, like, six-count exhale out through your mouth, slow tempo.

[00:50:44] That's what we would kind of talk about back in the low days and just basic stuff like that.

[00:50:49] But there's been a lot of really good research and a lot of good writings on that stuff over the last few years.

[00:50:55] So I'd have to kind of kick back into the literature to see what the latest recommendations are.

[00:51:02] What about, too, like cold plunges, cold showers, all that to help with sleep?

[00:51:07] Yeah, it depends.

[00:51:09] Yeah, it depends on the person, to be honest with you.

[00:51:11] It can be some people react very favorably.

[00:51:14] So what can happen if you're somebody who reacts very favorably, what can happen with cold plunges and showers is there's obviously sort of an immediate sort of reactive rush, right?

[00:51:30] But when you get out of the water, you're basically the – you have blood flow, immediate blood flow out to the extremities to try to warm you.

[00:51:42] And that can be very parasympathetically shifting for some people, which can be very calming.

[00:51:50] I am not that person, so I'm the opposite.

[00:51:53] Like I get that initial rush and then I am like through the moon for the next like three hours.

[00:52:00] So for me personally, and a lot of people would be like this, cold will be very activating.

[00:52:05] So like I would use cold like potentially like before a game if I was still playing because that would activate my sympathetic nervous system and I would be rushing.

[00:52:17] So it's a little bit of experimentation because some people will bring them down very quickly and help them shut down and some people are the opposite.

[00:52:26] Hot can be equally kind of the same thing.

[00:52:29] Hot can be very relaxing to some people and to other people it will have the opposite effect.

[00:52:34] So it's interesting.

[00:52:35] Both hot therapy and cold therapy can have opposite effects.

[00:52:39] It's just a little bit of you have to kind of experiment.

[00:52:41] Yeah, because body temperature regulation is the other piece of – I was talking to a doctor about this a few weeks ago when it was – he was saying, well, when you're using cold as a modality, you're – or when we're trying to go to sleep, our body's trying to cool itself down.

[00:52:58] Now jumping in a cold plunge would actually compensate your body to heat itself back up, which is the opposite of what you're trying to do.

[00:53:08] So he actually suggested after hockey like a cold shower versus complete immersion, which I try to do, but I still can't sleep.

[00:53:16] It's maybe the five Miller lights after a game too.

[00:53:19] It could be that.

[00:53:20] It could be that, yeah.

[00:53:22] And then what else do I have here?

[00:53:28] Anything else you wanted to touch on here, Devin?

[00:53:30] No, this is a great conversation.

[00:53:32] A lot of good points and it's fun talking shop.

[00:53:35] What else do I have?

[00:53:35] I think too just for people to realize like that training, like hockey, do we expect people – unless you're, yeah, youth, but like once you get to like kind of juniors, prep, whatever,

[00:53:50] it's really hard to come out of a hockey season without injuries and to be in a place where you're going to be bigger, faster, stronger, and still injury-free.

[00:54:02] That's probably not all going to happen.

[00:54:04] But I think the important thing is on the strength and conditioning side is, yeah, are we training throughout the year to keep ourselves robust and then make sure we don't break down?

[00:54:15] Because it was actually funny the other day is I had a hockey mom in.

[00:54:19] She was thinking about signing her son up for training, but she was worried because he's getting bigger and stronger, but she was worried about him getting hurt in the gym.

[00:54:27] And I was like, he's running around on the ice with 12 people in all different directions.

[00:54:31] It's him in a barbell.

[00:54:34] I was like, weak things break.

[00:54:36] Strong things usually don't, right?

[00:54:38] We can make stupid training decisions that might lead to injury if we load past capacity.

[00:54:44] But in general, if we can just build robustness in the offseason, he's going to probably have a better season.

[00:54:52] Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:56] All right, man.

[00:54:57] Well, we could probably do a whole other thing on velocity-based training and all kinds of other things.

[00:55:03] I had some other questions on here maybe we can do next time.

[00:55:05] But thank you for your time, man.

[00:55:07] I appreciate you coming on.

[00:55:09] And yeah, this is a long time coming because I've really looked at you as kind of an influential role in my strength and conditioning background here over the years.

[00:55:17] So it's been cool to get you on here and chat a little bit about hockey.

[00:55:21] I appreciate that.

[00:55:22] It was fun.

[00:55:23] So it's fun having me on and we'll have to do it again.

[00:55:26] Yeah.

[00:55:26] And we'll have a good season this year with the Utah Hockey Club.

[00:55:32] It sounds like it's a pro team though, right?

[00:55:35] Yeah.

[00:55:36] We're in the NHL and everything.

[00:55:39] I really don't follow sports that much actually because I'm just so busy with the business.

[00:55:43] Yeah.

[00:55:45] It's interesting they're calling it a club now and not.

[00:55:47] Do you guys have like a logo or anything yet?

[00:55:49] Or is it just Utah Hockey Club?

[00:55:51] Well, it happened so fast.

[00:55:54] There's a whole backstory.

[00:55:55] Sorry.

[00:55:55] But basically there's a fan vote for the name and we're going to be this for the season.

[00:56:00] And then the official name will come out at the end of the season.

[00:56:04] And that's who will be moving forward.

[00:56:06] But it happened so quick that they didn't have time to slap the label on it.

[00:56:10] To do the whole thing.

[00:56:11] Yeah, basically.

[00:56:12] Nice.

[00:56:13] Cool, man.

[00:56:13] Well, thanks again.

[00:56:14] And have a good one.

[00:56:16] All right, man.

[00:56:17] Thanks.