Finding Purpose in Fitness and Life with Krista Scott-Dixon, PHD

[00:00:01] Hello everybody, welcome back for another episode of the Barbell Therapy Podcast.

[00:00:05] I'm your host Dr. Brett Scott.

[00:00:07] With me here today to share the day with someone that shares the same last name as me.

[00:00:11] So we have Krista Scott-Dixon on and Krista tell the listeners a little bit about your background because it's quite unique in that you have a background in military application with psychology and nutrition and also habit and behavior change.

[00:00:26] So tell me a little bit about that and how you what your life's work is to accomplish here and how you see those three things fitting together.

[00:00:37] Dr. Brett Scott-Dixon That's a lot. Okay, well, let me give you the quick rundown on my background.

[00:00:42] So basically I'm one of those people that had a career path that kind of like looks like a squiggly line and, you know, kind of just interested in everything.

[00:00:53] So everything I'm doing now is sort of the result of just like randomly trying stuff through my life.

[00:00:58] But basically, I started off as an academic teaching, researching, you know, doing the academic career path about five years after my PhD.

[00:01:06] I was like this sucks. I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:01:09] Got out into the free world, did a stint in occupational health and then, you know, was always interested in health, fitness, nutrition.

[00:01:15] And thanks to my expertise and teaching and, you know, planning curriculum for undergrads, started playing the curriculum for precision nutrition coaching program at the time.

[00:01:27] From there that expanded into developing coaching software, coaching coaches, creating curriculum to teach coaches how to coach.

[00:01:35] Now my day job, if I can say it that way, is working for an app called Simple.

[00:01:41] And my role is basically creating these same kind of programs that can be delivered by an AI coach.

[00:01:47] And so how do we create an AI coach, not to replace a real coach, but to emulate some of those human elements that, you know, in a little bit more of a lightweight kind of way.

[00:01:56] So that's like the quick and dirty rundown. But of course, I do a whole bunch of other things. Right.

[00:02:01] I write curriculum. I run workshops. I coach clients and I got into coaching military high performance clients a little bit by accident.

[00:02:11] I'd worked together with Craig Weller and John Pope at Precision Nutrition for, I don't know, maybe it's been 10 or 15 years.

[00:02:17] They were designing the exercise programs and coaching. And at one point they are coaching these, you know, high performance military clients.

[00:02:25] And they had a woman who was going through a special operations program and they were like, look, we're dudes.

[00:02:32] Like we don't know how to like once you get past the sort of usual mental performance stuff, we don't know how to connect with her on like woman things.

[00:02:43] Like we recognize the limitations of our own experience. And so like, do you think you could work with her?

[00:02:49] Like you're a coach and we know this is like not your area, but maybe you could find that connection.

[00:02:53] So that was the jumping off point. And as it turned out, the skills I had developed over the years were actually incredibly useful for coaching high performance clients.

[00:03:03] It's sort of surprising. You'd think that high performance clients would be really like hardcore and they would need like elite special secrets.

[00:03:12] But all of the skills that I had learned over the years coaching nutrition, health, fitness to general population actually became not just relevant, but more relevant in high performance populations.

[00:03:22] So, yeah, just a completely circuitous path through all of the things.

[00:03:28] And really, like my I feel like my job changes every six months, but that's the general cold notes of it.

[00:03:34] How do those things become even more relative to high performance athletes?

[00:03:41] Well, a good example. I mean, it's kind of funny, but like I sort of say that my job with high performance military clients these days is teaching big, scary men about self compassion.

[00:03:56] And it's not all guys, but it's kind of like, you know, you you you understand that self compassion is important in something like for a regular person going through a hard time.

[00:04:07] Right. I think we can all understand like, oh, you know what? It's it's hard to make change and don't beat yourself up and be encouraging towards yourself.

[00:04:14] But I think we have the idea that if you're in a high performance role, you need to be way more of a hard ass.

[00:04:19] You cannot afford self compassion and it's actually the opposite.

[00:04:24] It's like the higher the stakes, the greater the compassion needs to be, because what you're being asked to do as a human being is so much more intense.

[00:04:35] There's so much of a greater possibility for failure or like real disaster if you don't get your job right.

[00:04:41] And so the pressure is incredible. The stress is incredible. The stakes couldn't be higher.

[00:04:45] So if you do not couple that with self compassion, you actually end up really damaging people.

[00:04:53] And there's quite good research showing that self compassion is like the number one mediating factor, meaning that it has a really significant influence between, you know, working in a military or tactical role and experiencing PTSD.

[00:05:07] So you are vastly less likely to have symptoms of PTSD if you practice self compassion.

[00:05:15] So I think that I mean, to me, that just speaks for itself.

[00:05:18] But, you know, we also see the difference in performance, because let's say you're about to do something super high pressure.

[00:05:25] If you're standing there like about to do the thing beating yourself up, you know, you're a piece of crap.

[00:05:31] You suck. Don't screw up. Right.

[00:05:33] You're going to perform worse versus like, OK, buddy, you got this who's like do what we practice.

[00:05:38] You're OK. You got this. You're going to you're going to relax and you're going to perform way, way better.

[00:05:43] So, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

[00:05:45] It's like as challenge goes up, support and compassion have to go up to and it's kind of counterintuitive to what you might expect.

[00:05:54] So when we're talking about compassion in that sense, is is there is compassion or feeling compassion from others a part of that, too?

[00:06:06] Or is it just solely on self compassion?

[00:06:10] It's a good question. I mean, I think we we want to build systems so that we can operate independently where needed.

[00:06:18] Right. We are not always going to have others.

[00:06:20] We need to almost create imaginary others and then internalize those others as like supportive cheerleaders inside ourselves.

[00:06:27] So the more sources of compassion you can get, the better, whether that's coach, mentor, team leader, whoever that is, partner.

[00:06:35] But it has to start with us internally because we can be surrounded by the most compassionate people possible.

[00:06:42] But if we cannot offer that to ourselves, then it really doesn't matter.

[00:06:46] And I think we all know people who are surrounded by all kinds of love and support, but cannot experience it internally.

[00:06:53] So it's kind of like an it's like a both this and that answer.

[00:06:57] And certainly people around you can show compassion, then you can learn it.

[00:07:03] But you have to be able to generate it within yourself to some degree.

[00:07:09] And it sounds like a very simple yet complicated topic, I think, because I recently learned to like I, I, I see a therapist and she was like, she asked me something.

[00:07:20] I was like, oh, shit, like I've never been like nice to myself in a way of like, just I need to do more.

[00:07:26] I need to be better. I need to get to this next level.

[00:07:29] And there's like been very, it up until recently, there's been very little like sit back and even just like celebrate the small wins that happen along the way.

[00:07:40] So but then you also mentioned to that, you know, it's like the positive self-talk of come on, you can do this.

[00:07:48] You know, you've practiced this. You know how to do it.

[00:07:51] That's a hard thing, I think.

[00:07:53] And I've had days where I have good days. I'm like, yeah, I can do this.

[00:07:56] And then other days, like, yeah, come on, tell yourself you can do it.

[00:07:59] But in your head, you're like, no, I can't do this.

[00:08:01] Like, how do we you know, it's like we have the two talking heads on the side of our shoulders.

[00:08:07] So how does one navigate that of we try, but we really don't believe?

[00:08:14] Mm hmm. I mean, the first thing to start with is accepting and allowing and understanding that this is normal.

[00:08:22] Like it just is like that.

[00:08:24] And I think when we talk about compassion, it's important to define it clearly and help people understand what are we talking about here?

[00:08:31] Right. So we are not talking about toxic positivity.

[00:08:34] Like, yeah, you're awesome.

[00:08:37] You go, girl.

[00:08:37] Like that's not what we're describing here.

[00:08:41] Reality and honesty is the basis for compassion, because you have to clearly see the suffering of yourself or someone else or the difficulties or the things that they're going through.

[00:08:52] You have to be able to see that clearly in order to generate compassion.

[00:08:57] So it's not kind of a fluffy, like imaginary pie in the sky, like just high fiving.

[00:09:03] You're amazing.

[00:09:03] You go.

[00:09:04] It's like, wow, like shit's really hard for you right now.

[00:09:07] And I see the full extent of that.

[00:09:09] And that's the place that I begin from.

[00:09:12] So it's first of all, seeing and like bearing witness to suffering and struggling.

[00:09:17] It is offering empathy.

[00:09:19] Like, oh, I can imagine this would be difficult for you if it's someone else.

[00:09:23] Right.

[00:09:24] And then if it's yourself, it's kind of like a you talk about the two heads, you know, two people.

[00:09:28] It's like there's a friendly like there's a good evil.

[00:09:32] Then there's like a friendly one going, oh, I see that like there's this internal battle.

[00:09:35] So there's almost like three.

[00:09:37] I mean, there's more than that, probably.

[00:09:38] But like there's like almost like a wise, adult, kind, external friend who's like, oh, I'm watching this go on for you.

[00:09:47] And I'm seeing like that.

[00:09:49] That's really sucking a lot of your resources.

[00:09:51] So like just accepting that this is how it feels is really crucial, because I think when we expect like, oh, I'm just going to like we have kind of a commodified consumer approach to it.

[00:10:04] We're like, I'm just going to buy some compassion and then I'm going to feel better.

[00:10:08] It doesn't work like that.

[00:10:09] Like it doesn't take away the hard thing.

[00:10:12] It doesn't take away the struggling.

[00:10:14] It doesn't take away the suffering.

[00:10:15] What it does do is remove the effort and work of fighting yourself or judging yourself, which is incredibly, incredibly effortful.

[00:10:24] So we're describing compassion.

[00:10:25] There's realism.

[00:10:26] There's empathy.

[00:10:28] There's like a self befriending.

[00:10:30] And, you know, like what do you want from a good friend?

[00:10:33] You want them to be honest.

[00:10:35] You want them to be encouraging.

[00:10:36] But you also want them to keep it real.

[00:10:38] Right.

[00:10:38] You don't want them to say stuff that's not true to you.

[00:10:43] So there's kind of like this acceptance piece where you're like, oh, there's a lot of conflict going on inside my head.

[00:10:49] The first thing I'm going to do here is just kind of go, OK, all right.

[00:10:53] We're all right.

[00:10:54] This is OK.

[00:10:54] This is our time.

[00:10:55] We're struggling here.

[00:10:57] And I'm just going to accept that that's the case.

[00:10:59] And there's something called the acceptance paradox, which is like the second you accept the existence of something or the reality of something, it stops being so hard.

[00:11:10] And you start being much more willing to change.

[00:11:13] Whereas before you're fighting it so hard, you're like, I shouldn't be having these thoughts and I shouldn't be having these feelings.

[00:11:19] And you're like all of your effort and all of your energy is going into this like eternal battle.

[00:11:25] Whereas when you just accept it, like things are going to get crazy in here.

[00:11:29] It's like, oh, OK.

[00:11:32] I mean, the analogy I like to use is a heavy squat always feels heavy.

[00:11:37] And I don't care if it's your first day squatting the bar or if it's like you're doing your, you know, world record championship.

[00:11:43] I don't know, thousand pound squat.

[00:11:46] It's always going to feel heavy if it's heavy for you.

[00:11:49] And that's just how it feels.

[00:11:51] So, I mean, just beginning with that acceptance is like the key that unlocks everything else.

[00:12:00] And so it almost sounds like, too, like you almost have to take a step back and look at maybe different sides of you or your personality where you're looking at, OK, this is the anxious side of me that gets anxious during a competition.

[00:12:15] And I know that these feelings are going to come up.

[00:12:18] But the other rational side of me has to step in and say, hey, you've done this.

[00:12:23] You can practice this.

[00:12:24] Acknowledge it and then befriend yourself, essentially.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:29] And see the value of it, too.

[00:12:30] Right.

[00:12:31] Like your anxiety self really wants to help.

[00:12:35] You know, like I think a lot of these rejected parts of ourselves are kind of like those awkward friends or family members that like really want to help, but they kind of do it in the wrong way, like a really kind of awkward, misguided way.

[00:12:48] And you're like, oh, like I see you trying and I can tell what you want to do.

[00:12:52] Or it's like when your dog thinks they're helping you, but they're totally in the way.

[00:12:56] Right.

[00:12:57] And you're like, oh, I see where you're going with that.

[00:12:58] So it's kind of the same thing.

[00:13:00] Like, let's take anxiety as an example.

[00:13:02] Like the value of anxiety is it helps us anticipate and prepare.

[00:13:07] So whenever I go on a trip, for example, my anxiety is crazy ratcheted up because it's like, what if I'm stranded in Somalia with no passport and no like just ridiculous scenarios.

[00:13:18] So then it's like, oh, remember to pack passport.

[00:13:21] Remember to pack toothbrush like anxiety is a kind of preparation energy.

[00:13:25] So when you can turn towards your anxiety, not try to shove it away.

[00:13:29] But when you can turn towards it and say, OK, what's what's up, bud?

[00:13:32] Like, what do you need me to hear right now?

[00:13:34] Oh, well, I think you should be worried about preparation.

[00:13:37] OK, cool.

[00:13:39] Thanks.

[00:13:40] You know what?

[00:13:40] Would it help you if I made a little checklist of some stuff that you want me to remember?

[00:13:44] OK, cool.

[00:13:45] Thanks, buddy.

[00:13:46] Right.

[00:13:46] It's a whole different attitude.

[00:13:48] And then your anxiety would be like, glad, glad we had the talk.

[00:13:52] Glad I got to say what I needed to say.

[00:13:55] So sometimes just asking that part of yourself, like, what is it you need me to hear?

[00:13:59] What is it you need me to know?

[00:14:01] Like, what is your job here?

[00:14:03] What is your value?

[00:14:05] Sometimes that conversation alone within yourself just settles it right down.

[00:14:09] Your anxiety is like, OK, cool.

[00:14:11] I feel like we're going to remember the passport.

[00:14:12] OK, it's interesting.

[00:14:15] And when you say it that way, it almost becomes like anxiety can become a strength point of someone of maybe overpreparing.

[00:14:23] And that's that's absolutely that's absolutely a positive trait you have if you can learn how to utilize it effectively.

[00:14:33] Cool.

[00:14:33] Cool.

[00:14:35] And so, as I said before, before the show, identity is a thing I see on the performance and rehab side of things all the time that can be, I think, a poor coping mechanism for someone when they identify a lot of their life as an athlete.

[00:14:59] And from a personal space as an athlete.

[00:15:02] As an athlete of this is my whole life and this is what's most important to me and I need to get these goals and this and that.

[00:15:08] When like I've been coaching for since I was 19, so like 14 years now.

[00:15:14] And it's like I've I've been in the gym enough to realize there's more to life outside of the gym than the number on the bar.

[00:15:22] And I frequently have to remind athletes sometimes that, hey, you know what?

[00:15:27] The number you deadlifted is never going to end up on your gravestone.

[00:15:30] No one's going to care.

[00:15:32] Right.

[00:15:33] Maybe people know you for for being someone that was strong and did some cool stuff, but that's not why you're going to be remembered.

[00:15:41] That's about who you are and what you did and, you know, helping people and changing the world, which strength sports are cool.

[00:15:48] But what there's a lot more to life outside of that.

[00:15:53] But so and I see it as just a major thing that people struggle with of shit hits the fan in life and they go more and more towards strength sports to maybe run away from some other things that are going on in life.

[00:16:06] Meanwhile, life around them seems to continue to crumble in a downward spiral.

[00:16:12] And then same on the rehab side of people use being an athlete or a gym junkie or whatever as a coping mechanism for other things that maybe they don't want to handle in their life.

[00:16:26] And the moment they get hurt and can't work out, everything starts to crumble.

[00:16:33] So can you just take us through how these things can be problematic and what things we see in these, you know, these patterns?

[00:16:42] Mm hmm.

[00:16:43] Yeah, there's a lot of layers to this question.

[00:16:45] So I'll try and tackle some of them.

[00:16:47] I mean, I think the concept of identity is itself pretty interesting.

[00:16:52] Right.

[00:16:52] Because what do we mean when we say that?

[00:16:54] What are we talking about?

[00:16:55] We talk about someone's identity.

[00:16:56] identity.

[00:16:57] And this is like the first question to kind of ask like clients or people that we're working with, like, who do you think you are?

[00:17:05] Right.

[00:17:05] Like if you had to define yourself, what words would you use?

[00:17:09] What concepts?

[00:17:09] What images?

[00:17:11] And then let's ascertain from there whether that is a brittle, two dimensional kind of construct or whether it's a robust and resilient and like multifaceted kind of identity.

[00:17:22] Right.

[00:17:23] So, like, who do you think you are?

[00:17:24] Or, oh, I'm a, you know, I'm a power lifter.

[00:17:26] Like as soon as someone leads with that, it's like, oh, that's interesting.

[00:17:30] You know, what does that mean to you?

[00:17:31] So the first thing you want to figure out is like, how robust is this identity?

[00:17:35] Can this identity handle changes, obstacles, deviations from the path setback?

[00:17:43] One of the things that I talk about to my high performance clients a lot is like, when did you first decide that you wanted to pursue this line of work and who are your role models?

[00:17:54] And one of the things that comes out a lot as a big source of anxiety is there was kind of a gap for me at a very important developmental age.

[00:18:02] Like, let's say, 15, 16 for a lot of these folks.

[00:18:05] I saw on TV a two-dimensional image of someone doing a cool job.

[00:18:11] They were jumping out of a plane or they were like Rambo or whatever.

[00:18:15] Right.

[00:18:15] And I was like, I want to be that.

[00:18:18] That looks so cool.

[00:18:19] And then they kind of constructed their career path around that.

[00:18:22] Now, the problem is that that's a two-dimensional image.

[00:18:25] It's not a real messy, sloppy human being.

[00:18:27] Like, and a couple of people will say, oh, you know, I met this high ranking so-and-so or I listened to David Goggins or whatever.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:34] Like, so maybe it was a real person that they imprinted on, but that real person was not fully developed to them.

[00:18:41] Like when I hear them talk about some of these guys, I'm like, I wonder what their wife thinks.

[00:18:44] Like, I wonder what the spouse would say about this hero, right?

[00:18:48] Like how they would flesh it out.

[00:18:50] So, you know, the first thing you want to figure out is like how robust and resilient is this identity?

[00:18:54] Is being a power lifter something that, just to pick on power lifters, is it something you do or something that you think that you are?

[00:19:00] If it's something you do, we're okay because you can do all kinds of things.

[00:19:04] You can do infinite things.

[00:19:05] If it's something that you are, we need to help you understand that anything like that can and will be taken from you at some point in your life.

[00:19:17] Whether it's injury, illness, you had a baby, you got a new job, like this happened, that happened, you got older.

[00:19:24] Like I've had to come to terms, like I used to define myself by, I used to squat and deadlift.

[00:19:30] Like that was my jam.

[00:19:31] I was really good at squatting.

[00:19:33] Like now I'm almost 51 and my low back is like, I'm not into this anymore, right?

[00:19:37] I can't argue.

[00:19:39] Like it's, you know, so I have to sort of redefine myself as like not the person who does that.

[00:19:45] So like there's all these factors that will take this identity from you.

[00:19:50] So having that conversation with clients is really important to say like, who would you be if not this, right?

[00:19:56] Do you have enough layers to you that you can survive and adapt and thrive?

[00:20:02] And like Madonna, like reinvent yourself every 5, 10 years or whatever, or like the Terminator, you know, fall apart and come back together.

[00:20:09] Because that is how life works.

[00:20:10] So it's cool if you want to put all your eggs in the basket of being this person right now.

[00:20:15] Because honestly, to be like, let's say a world class or nationally ranked athlete, you have to be a little bit cuckoo.

[00:20:21] You have to be singular focused.

[00:20:23] You have to be obsessive and a little bit one dimensional or two dimensional.

[00:20:29] But you have to understand that this is just a point in time.

[00:20:33] So it's kind of like having multiple perspectives, right?

[00:20:36] Like what are you doing now?

[00:20:37] What are you doing later?

[00:20:38] The other question I'd be curious about is like, what is it like, let's be specific.

[00:20:44] When I say like I'm an athlete, like what does that mean to you?

[00:20:48] And it could be they have this like amazing, really rich definition.

[00:20:53] Well, being an athlete means that, you know, I'm someone who perseveres and I confront challenges and I try to learn and I'm always trying to improve.

[00:21:01] Like, that's cool.

[00:21:03] Like I'm on board with that one, right?

[00:21:05] Because it's more of a process based identity or I'm developing these qualities.

[00:21:09] I'm developing these characteristics.

[00:21:11] And I like that about myself.

[00:21:12] But if it's a very flat, like performance based identity, I have to be someone who squats heavy.

[00:21:20] I have to be someone who chases that deadlift.

[00:21:22] I have to be whatever.

[00:21:25] And if there's negative consequences to it, like if you've ever watched documentaries about like Louis Simmons and all the guys that he used to work with, right?

[00:21:32] They were fully 100% prepared to destroy themselves in the service of this.

[00:21:38] And on the one hand, I kind of appreciate like, okay, like I kind of admire that level of like crazy dedication.

[00:21:47] On the other hand, for most people, it's like, is this really the hill you literally want to die on?

[00:21:52] You know what I mean?

[00:21:53] Well, yeah.

[00:21:54] Like Ronnie Coleman.

[00:21:56] Ronnie Coleman.

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:57] Have you seen his documentary?

[00:21:59] Oh, it's tragic.

[00:22:00] It's tragic.

[00:22:01] And it's like, I remember watching that being like, do I ever want to lift weights again?

[00:22:06] Like if, you know, and that's not the case.

[00:22:09] But seeing that, you know, he is someone that truly put his whole life into that sport.

[00:22:16] And he left it in the gym or on, you know, stage.

[00:22:20] But it's like, you just sit there and watch that documentary and go, is that worth it to sit there and be in suffering for the rest of your life?

[00:22:31] And for some people it is, you know, for the 1% of the 1% of the 1%, they will say, yes, absolutely.

[00:22:37] And there's research showing that some athletes, you know, if you ask them, would you rather take 25 years off your life or win the gold medal and whatever, they will say, give me the gold medal.

[00:22:46] And so part of this is like having a grown up conversation about what are you willing to trade?

[00:22:53] Because you can't have everything.

[00:22:54] If you're going to be, you know, that one person who's going to go all the way, go for it.

[00:23:00] Just understand the consequences.

[00:23:01] But I think that the vast majority of the people that we work with don't need to die on that hill or even be mildly inconvenienced on that hill, you know?

[00:23:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:13] Because there's that whole goal thing, too, of once you hit that, now what?

[00:23:20] And like we see a lot of high-level athletes go into pretty significant states of depression and things once they got the gold medal, they won first place, they hit their goal.

[00:23:31] I even see it like I've experienced it, too, at like the local level.

[00:23:35] I remember the first weightlifting meet I ever did, like three weeks after I said to my coach, I'm like, something?

[00:23:39] Like, I just don't feel right.

[00:23:41] I don't feel strong.

[00:23:42] Like, my motivation is down.

[00:23:44] Like, and he's like, yeah, it's post-meet depression.

[00:23:47] It's a thing.

[00:23:47] And I was like, what?

[00:23:48] He's like, yeah, just like you work so hard for this one thing and now it's over and you don't have any next immediate goal.

[00:23:54] Like, we all kind of go into this slump for a little bit.

[00:23:57] And I see it with a lot of my athletes now, too, of like they put so much energy and effort into this one thing and they're, you know, a lot of their life's attention is on that.

[00:24:06] And then it's gone.

[00:24:07] And it's just like, okay, I don't know who I am now without this competition in front of me anymore.

[00:24:16] And it's not necessarily a bad thing because I think that it is important in life to disintegrate so that you can reintegrate with a different identity.

[00:24:27] I don't think you ever want an identity.

[00:24:29] I mean, it's not possible to have an identity that remains static for all eternity.

[00:24:35] And so, you know, to come back to the self-compassion piece, part of that's also normalizing it.

[00:24:41] And I work with a lot of folks who are going through some kind of selection process.

[00:24:44] So they want to get into some kind of elite military or tactical unit.

[00:24:49] And so, you know, they're trying to figure out how to prepare for that.

[00:24:53] But I also work with people on the other end of that who have gone through selection and not made it.

[00:24:59] And maybe that's once, twice.

[00:25:01] I've worked with people who have not made it like four times.

[00:25:03] And they're like, this was my dream.

[00:25:07] I have completed the maximum number of attempts at this.

[00:25:12] Like, what am I doing?

[00:25:14] There's like a huge, I don't even know how to cope with this, right?

[00:25:17] And I think that these moments in life are really crucial because then you're given the opportunity to re-coalesce around something else.

[00:25:25] But when you're in it, it's fucking horrible.

[00:25:28] Like, I can't say it any other way than that.

[00:25:30] It is a horrible space to be in.

[00:25:34] And it's like, you hope that at least you have someone with you as a guide on the way.

[00:25:38] You could say, hang in there.

[00:25:40] This is normal.

[00:25:41] Like, you know, like you had, right?

[00:25:43] To say like, oh yeah, this is normal.

[00:25:44] Everyone goes through this.

[00:25:46] Like, that helps a little bit, even if it completely sucks to be in it.

[00:25:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:53] But I think that goes back to like what you said of like just accepting it as like, oh, okay.

[00:25:59] I guess this is just what everyone experiences.

[00:26:01] And it does make it easier than like trying to fight against it and be like, oh, I have to do this or I have to do this.

[00:26:06] No, like this is just the stage you're in and going from there.

[00:26:10] But still on this topic of identity is where else, so you mentioned the whole, you know, I was 15, but other places these false senses of identity can come from or negative senses of identity can come from or why people may develop them.

[00:26:30] Oh, yeah.

[00:26:31] I mean, I think they can come from anywhere.

[00:26:33] And I think they often grow from good things.

[00:26:36] A great example of that would be something like disordered eating, right, where someone's like, hey, you know what, I'm feeling kind of out of shape or I could eat better.

[00:26:43] You know what, I'm going to learn how to eat healthier.

[00:26:46] And I'm going to lose a little bit of weight.

[00:26:48] I'm feeling a little bit splodgy.

[00:26:49] Cool.

[00:26:50] Right?

[00:26:51] So they start working on eating better.

[00:26:52] Maybe they go to the gym a little bit more, right?

[00:26:55] The beginnings of this, beautiful, right?

[00:26:59] Then maybe, you know, they lose a little weight.

[00:27:01] People are like, hey, you're looking good.

[00:27:02] You're looking leaner.

[00:27:03] You know, you're obviously on the health train.

[00:27:04] Good for you.

[00:27:06] And then there's this kind of cycle that gets set up of like, oh, people are affirming my behavior here.

[00:27:11] Let's do steroids.

[00:27:13] That's right.

[00:27:14] That's right.

[00:27:15] Exactly.

[00:27:17] It's like zero to 100, right?

[00:27:19] Like if one is good, 100 must be amazing.

[00:27:22] And I don't think that concept holds true really for anything.

[00:27:25] But it's exactly that.

[00:27:27] It's like how can I like if a little bit is good, more must be amazing.

[00:27:31] And as we all know, really, it's like if one tequila is fun, 100 must be fantastic.

[00:27:36] And it really doesn't work like that.

[00:27:38] So I think a lot of these things, you know, have lovely roots to them, right?

[00:27:43] People genuinely want to change, try something new, push into some area of development that they get rewarded for, whether that's career, parenting, you know, some kind of achievement.

[00:27:56] It's just it kind of like metastasizes and they lose perspective about it.

[00:28:02] They don't have someone like calibrating them and saying like, okay, you know, it's cool.

[00:28:06] Like I would be at this level for you.

[00:28:07] I don't think I would necessarily, you know, go to that level.

[00:28:10] And that's why coaches and mentors are really, really helpful.

[00:28:13] But I think so many of these things just come from a lot of just normal, healthy things.

[00:28:18] But when they are combined with a void in the original sense of self, that's when we run into problems, right?

[00:28:28] So like the average person going to the gym is probably not going to turn into someone who has a dysfunctional relationship with exercise.

[00:28:35] But if it's like I'm going to the gym, there's this real deep void inside me.

[00:28:40] I've never done the work to acquire any like robust core or sense of self.

[00:28:45] And I'm going through a difficult time and and and, you know, that's when we start to have problems.

[00:28:51] So it's kind of like an intersection of multiple factors.

[00:28:55] And so for some people, it's just kind of like wrong place, wrong time.

[00:28:57] For other people, you can see the narrative like building step by step.

[00:29:02] Like, oh, yeah, it makes sense that you would have ended up here because you started there.

[00:29:06] And I think if we looked at sort of the life story of a lot of people that we would consider kind of like, you know, started out on the hero's journey and then like crested the roller coaster and then ended in like some explosively awful ending.

[00:29:20] You know, like you could kind of look back and see the antecedents and be like, oh, yeah, that that makes perfect sense how that all kind of went down, you know?

[00:29:30] So and so so we're talking about these voids, right?

[00:29:32] Like, what are some of the voids we can kind of pick up on, like loneliness, lack of people accepting them, lack of validation or recognition?

[00:29:46] Like what, you know, I'm sure a lot of it comes from parenting styles of the 90s or whatever, too, for the people I'm dealing with.

[00:29:54] But what are some of those things?

[00:29:57] Yeah, loneliness is like like isolation.

[00:30:00] Right.

[00:30:00] And so like you can be surrounded by people and still experience alienation and loneliness.

[00:30:05] So it's not just that you don't have people around, but something fundamentally like people do not understand you.

[00:30:11] They don't make the attempt to understand you.

[00:30:13] They don't get you.

[00:30:14] They don't like they're not interested in you as a human being.

[00:30:17] And I think, you know, a lot of top athletes have this experience where they are just bodies.

[00:30:24] They are just meat in the machine and nobody is interested in them as human beings.

[00:30:29] It's just like how much money can you make?

[00:30:31] How many you know, how many accolades can you gather?

[00:30:35] But you're just you're just meat in the machine.

[00:30:37] You're just sausage getting fed into the grinder.

[00:30:40] It's like fashion models, right?

[00:30:42] It's just like you're just like a body that people hang clothes on.

[00:30:45] It's kind of the same thing.

[00:30:46] Your body is your job and nobody cares who the person is inside of that.

[00:30:52] So I think that's a big part of it.

[00:30:54] And it's especially for people, I think, if you've grown up with that as a consistent identity, that's especially a risk.

[00:31:02] So it's like if you have grown up where dad and mom or whatever only paid attention to you when you were doing this, this and this.

[00:31:09] Or if you were super cute and you've always been cute your whole life, it's like, you know, you get rewarded for your appearance.

[00:31:15] And then when that starts to degrade, you're like, oh, my God, like it's a huge freak out.

[00:31:18] So so one factor would be were you consistently rewarded for performing in some way earlier in your life?

[00:31:27] Not just being who you are, just like being a messy little human, but like were you rewarded for performing, whether that was academically, whether that was athletically?

[00:31:36] And did you experience some kind of conditional approval?

[00:31:39] Like you're only OK.

[00:31:41] You will only get love if you get an A, if you get 10 out of 10, if you are doing this, if you are playing daddy's favorite sport.

[00:31:50] Right. I mean, I think so we can go down this rabbit hole of sports parents, which to me are just an absolute nightmare.

[00:31:56] But this whole like contingent conditional approval of like, I didn't make the football team or whatever.

[00:32:02] Like now you need to go and like live my aspirations for me.

[00:32:07] Like I'm the parent, you're the child and I'm working out my stuff on you and through you.

[00:32:14] Like that's just a recipe for disaster.

[00:32:17] And I think that some sports have it more than others, too.

[00:32:19] Like gymnastics is one that's just brutal for that.

[00:32:22] Hockey, too.

[00:32:24] We call it Gretzky syndrome in the hockey world.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:28] Yeah, totally.

[00:32:30] And I'm sure you've seen all kinds of crazy stuff in hockey arenas with like parents losing it over six year old.

[00:32:35] Like in Canada, we call them like the little Timbit team, like the little six year old kids, you know.

[00:32:39] So I played hockey up here and growing up from my head.

[00:32:44] My dad had me on skates from when I was four.

[00:32:46] And I still me and my brother still play hockey on the same team now, which is pretty cool.

[00:32:51] I'll give my dad a shout out here, though, in that he was always our coach, but he always like every year.

[00:32:56] He didn't push us too hard in the sense that like every year is like, do you want to do this?

[00:33:00] If you don't like I'm fine with not waking up at 6 a.m. on a Sunday to drive you to a rink.

[00:33:06] And so there was never any of that.

[00:33:08] But there was a case when I was probably 10, a dad beat another dad to death in a local hockey rink because of a bad call.

[00:33:19] And they were on different teams and they disagreed.

[00:33:23] And it's crazy.

[00:33:24] But that could be a whole nother podcast episode is athletics and parenting, I think.

[00:33:30] But yeah, so you're saying the bad thing is when people are only getting that validation or recognition when they do as well as the parent wanted them to do.

[00:33:42] Yeah, when you're getting when everything about you can be summed up into performance.

[00:33:47] So not process, not qualities, not characteristics, not, you know, things that you're manifesting in the world.

[00:33:54] Not just you being you, like just existing, but performing.

[00:33:59] Jumping through the hoops, right?

[00:34:01] Being the trained monkey.

[00:34:02] I think that's a huge one.

[00:34:04] And another one is just like total lack of acknowledgement about the level of stress that is involved, especially for a younger person, like developmentally, who can't compute all of the stuff that's going on that goes into performing athletically.

[00:34:24] Like when I was a little kid, like my parents put me in violin lessons at age two.

[00:34:31] Now, this is like this is total 70s parenting.

[00:34:33] And you talk to any kid of the 70s and they will remember the wooden spoon.

[00:34:36] So I remember getting chased around the house with a wooden spoon because I would not practice the violin at age two.

[00:34:42] Like when I say this, it's bananas now.

[00:34:46] But, you know, I got entered into music competitions like at age six and seven.

[00:34:50] Like imagine trying to compute a music competition at age six and seven with no conversation around like how is this for you emotionally?

[00:35:00] Like just none of that.

[00:35:00] Right. And so I think a lot of these kids kind of get thrust into these arenas where developmentally it's incredibly difficult to process even what is occurring.

[00:35:10] Like never mind bring it into language.

[00:35:12] Never mind talk about it.

[00:35:13] Never mind have someone listen to you and actually care.

[00:35:16] Like your brain developmentally can't even compute what is going on.

[00:35:20] It's just noise and early mornings.

[00:35:22] Like you don't even know what's going on.

[00:35:23] Right.

[00:35:23] So I think that's a huge part of the problem, too, is kind of like putting people in situations that are developmentally inappropriate without support.

[00:35:32] And that sort of becomes a pattern.

[00:35:34] So then the person ends up at 35 just with like debilitating levels of anxiety and just a core belief that like I guess I just am not worthy as a human being unless I'm doing this thing.

[00:35:49] I guess this is my life now because that's the template that I got.

[00:35:54] Hmm.

[00:35:55] And so what about the like I don't know how to define this the people out there that are those types of people that it's it's never their fault and it's always something else around them that's not them that's making their life worse or harder or making them suffer more.

[00:36:16] Mm hmm.

[00:36:16] Yeah, we call that external locus of control.

[00:36:19] Right.

[00:36:19] Yes.

[00:36:19] And there's actually interesting research on narcissism that's come out in the last few years.

[00:36:24] You know, we think we talk about narcissism and it's very much in the public consciousness lately.

[00:36:28] So when I when I say narcissist, we often imagine like the grandiose narcissist.

[00:36:33] Right.

[00:36:34] The big talking, bragging, big personality, just like steamroll everybody to get their own way.

[00:36:40] Like that's our image of a narcissist.

[00:36:42] But there's a lot of interesting research out now about narcissism suggesting that really it's a lot more about having like no internal sense of self, but looking to the outside world to continually.

[00:36:56] It's almost like trying to make a sandcastle that the water keeps washing away.

[00:37:01] Right.

[00:37:01] So you keep gathering the sand to you and you're mystified about why this sand is disappearing because you don't have any stable internal core.

[00:37:09] And so the application here is there's infinite things that you can blame for why your life is as it is.

[00:37:18] Right.

[00:37:18] The weather is this way.

[00:37:20] My coach is bullshit.

[00:37:21] They put me on the wrong program.

[00:37:23] Like you can find fault with the external world and you never have to assume any kind of grown up level of accountability and responsibility for your own actions.

[00:37:34] So this is sometimes the more insidious form of narcissism because it's not that grandiose boasting, but it's just fully focused on like blaming all of the externals rather than adopting any responsibility for your own growth or personhood.

[00:37:49] And that's kind of a dangerous thing because first of all, it's incredibly frustrating to live like that.

[00:37:55] Like we used to hear this all the time at precision nutrition clients would be like, well, this didn't work for me.

[00:38:02] I mean, it's like they say an AA, right?

[00:38:04] The program works if you work it.

[00:38:06] So like if you show up and you put in the reps and you follow the process and you try to learn, you try to grow, you assume responsibility for yourself.

[00:38:16] You know, then like the process unfolds as it should.

[00:38:21] But, you know, it's so much easier to blame others.

[00:38:24] I think it's terrifying to think that you have any role to play in the outcome of your life.

[00:38:33] Right.

[00:38:33] It's almost like it's like a little kid coping mechanism.

[00:38:36] Right.

[00:38:36] It's like you come downstairs and you're like, who ate the last cookie?

[00:38:40] And, you know, one kid points to his sister and he's like, she did it, even though he's covered in cookie crumbs.

[00:38:44] Right.

[00:38:45] Like you never have to admit that you are the one who ate the cookie.

[00:38:48] So this can be super frustrating in clients because you're like.

[00:38:53] Can you be a grown up and have some responsibility?

[00:38:57] But they remain kind of eternally powerless over their own outcome.

[00:39:02] Now, what I like to do with those clients is draw a sphere of control.

[00:39:06] Right.

[00:39:06] Here's one circle.

[00:39:07] This is what you have almost total control over.

[00:39:09] Here's another circle outside of that.

[00:39:11] Here's what you have some control over.

[00:39:12] Here's the biggest circle, which you have no control over.

[00:39:15] Right.

[00:39:15] That's the weather.

[00:39:16] That's what other people think.

[00:39:17] All those other things.

[00:39:19] What is in your sphere of control and how do we double down on that?

[00:39:23] That that's also a great way to lower your stress.

[00:39:25] But it's an important conversation to have with those clients who are like, oh, you know, it's the coach's fault, it's the program's fault, you know, whatever.

[00:39:33] The thing way of the gym was wrong, you know, to really kind of keep returning it to like.

[00:39:40] Like, what's your role in this dynamic?

[00:39:43] It's an important conversation.

[00:39:45] So, I mean, sometimes people will just accept no responsibility and then it's like, OK, cool, be miserable forever.

[00:39:51] But if you can get someone to sort of say like, all right, I'm kind of playing a role here, then you could actually make some changes.

[00:39:57] But I'm with you.

[00:39:58] It's just it's incredibly frustrating.

[00:40:01] So what things on that that inner circle that they have the most control of in their their internal locus of control?

[00:40:09] What what types of qualities or traits should people be looking at that they should have ownership over?

[00:40:17] Really good question.

[00:40:19] I would say your mindset and now I want to be careful.

[00:40:22] I don't mean your thoughts because thoughts come in and out and, you know, come and go.

[00:40:26] Right. But your mindset, which is the this the mental stance that you consciously and deliberately choose and practice.

[00:40:34] That's something you have almost total control over.

[00:40:37] Right. You can show up every day and like deliberately say, OK, today I'm going to practice having a growth mindset.

[00:40:43] It's not going to be easy. I'm going to have all kinds of other competing thoughts come in.

[00:40:47] That's OK. But I'm going to deliberately practice curating the thoughts that I'm having or curating the way that I think about problems, for example.

[00:40:56] Another one is my responses and reactions.

[00:41:00] Now, sure, maybe I have a reaction that's, you know, instantaneous, surprising, whatever.

[00:41:07] Like someone jumps out and yells boo and I scream like a little girl, like, OK, cool.

[00:41:12] Right. But most of the time we can control our responses and we can build the ability to control and manage our responses, which is basically what we call self-regulation.

[00:41:21] Right. We have control over building the skills to regulate ourselves.

[00:41:27] That's another big one. We can, to some degree, control what we say to other people.

[00:41:33] Right. How we how we show up, how we choose to show up.

[00:41:37] And, you know, like I'm sure you've been to the gym where there's like a sign up saying something like everyone, everyone can bring this.

[00:41:46] And it's like working hard, being on time, cleaning up after yourself, like all of those kind of old timey gym values, putting in the reps, having a good attitude.

[00:41:58] All of those are within the sphere of control that you, by and large, have almost total control over.

[00:42:05] I mean, the old timers knew it. Right.

[00:42:07] 50 whatever you'd find in a boxing gym 50 years ago was like the wisdom of the ages, to be honest.

[00:42:13] Interesting. I never, never thought about it that way, but I can see how that is.

[00:42:20] That's definitely lacking these days.

[00:42:22] I feel like just even like within some of these sports of, you know, powerlifting.

[00:42:32] I'm just going to keep picking on powerlifting here.

[00:42:35] Why not? They can't run fast.

[00:42:37] Yeah, they don't want to do reps.

[00:42:39] They complain about having to warm up on a bike.

[00:42:42] They don't want to stretch or foam roll or do any mobility work.

[00:42:45] So we're just going to keep shitting on them.

[00:42:47] But, you know, yeah, looking back at it in like the 70s, 60s, whatever, people were getting fucking strong with shitty ass equipment.

[00:42:57] And now such a simple fucking thing has become so, so goddamn complex and complicated of like, well, I can't use this bar because the knurling's wrong.

[00:43:11] Or I need calibrated plates because they're thinner and we can't have these wider ones because it changes the dynamics of the bar or the feel of the bar.

[00:43:21] Or they changed the bar out last minute at the final competition.

[00:43:27] The bench height isn't right.

[00:43:30] The bench width changed.

[00:43:32] All these different things like, yes, they affect performance, but we've made it such a fucking big deal in these gyms that like to own a powerlifting gym.

[00:43:41] Now you need all these specifications of equipment and has nothing to do with like the culture or atmosphere of the gym a lot of the times, at least to get started.

[00:43:52] It's kind of funny that powerlifting has picked that up because it used to be, it used to be very like basement gym, dirty, gritty.

[00:44:01] Like you'd get rust on yourself like as you left because the bars were so old and crest like you'd leave with orange hands from the rest on the plates.

[00:44:09] Yeah, for sure.

[00:44:11] I do suspect there are some generational differences in things like value systems and certainly sport now has become a game of thousands of a seconds in a way, right?

[00:44:23] Because they can be win or lost by tiny, tiny micro adjustments, which I think in a way fundamentally, you know, to go back to this definition of an athlete,

[00:44:32] fundamentally, fundamentally loses the spirit of what we could call athleticism, which is, you know, the pursuit of excellence and mastery in physical, well, and arguably mental and emotional performance.

[00:44:46] But also like a deep engagement with the process.

[00:44:48] And, you know, one of the things we were talking about before we got on and you talked about in the prep notes is what's the difference between athletes and tactical clients?

[00:44:59] And this is a huge one is that, you know, tactical military high performance clients of that nature do not get a choice of equipment.

[00:45:08] You could be showing up half your equipment's missing.

[00:45:11] The field is muddy.

[00:45:13] The conditions are crazy.

[00:45:14] You don't know how long your workout is.

[00:45:16] It's not even a workout.

[00:45:17] It's like, you know, like it's a physical endeavor that has no control, no end, no clarity as to what's even happening.

[00:45:24] Like the conditions are constantly changing, chaotic, random.

[00:45:27] It could be water.

[00:45:29] It could be dark.

[00:45:30] It could be mud.

[00:45:30] It could be, you know, like sand that like sucks your legs down into it.

[00:45:35] Like they don't have the luxury of that.

[00:45:38] And I think that's one of the big differences between competitive athletics and like military tactical fields is that military tactical fields.

[00:45:46] Like it's a complete opposite perspective.

[00:45:48] It's like do what you can with what you have.

[00:45:52] You know, we don't have a barbell.

[00:45:54] I don't know.

[00:45:54] Is there like a rock?

[00:45:55] Can someone find a rock?

[00:45:56] Can we get a bucket with some water?

[00:45:58] Like it's a very creative, flexible, adaptable, constantly changing environment.

[00:46:04] And yeah, I feel kind of sad for athletes now who require so much precision because it's so rarely achievable.

[00:46:14] I think what we really want to be building and what to me is part of athleticism is resilience and creativity and capability and problem solving.

[00:46:22] And, you know, I think that, for example, American football athletes are some of the greatest athletes on the planet precisely because to be good at it requires being responsive.

[00:46:32] Right. So you're navigating your way down a field with like all of these constant like other stimuli who are like each of them have their own sentient consciousness and equal skill level and strength and size are like randomly like organizing themselves around you.

[00:46:49] And you have to be, you know, throwing a projectile and navigating like to me, that's the essence of athleticism is constantly being able to adapt to changing circumstances.

[00:46:59] Now, I mean, feel free to argue with me on this one, but it feels like that's got to be an intrinsic part of what being an athlete is.

[00:47:06] So, yeah, you get in there and the bar is like not the right bar.

[00:47:10] I get it when when thousandths of a second or a pound matter.

[00:47:14] Cool.

[00:47:15] But ideally, you know, we want to build kind of a good zone of capability where I don't say it doesn't matter, but it matters less.

[00:47:24] I've always noticed some of my best performing clients or the maybe not the best performing clients, but sometimes and the ones that seem to at least make the most progress are the ones that don't get caught up in those small details.

[00:47:39] They don't even know about it.

[00:47:40] It doesn't matter until they learn about it.

[00:47:43] And even then, it's something that won't bother them.

[00:47:45] There's no excuses about it.

[00:47:48] It's just like this is what I have.

[00:47:50] Yeah, they have that variability of like, OK, this is the tools I'm giving.

[00:47:53] I'm going to be resourceful and make the best of it versus the person that comes in and has the meltdown about this is the wrong bar.

[00:48:01] The music's different today.

[00:48:03] The lighting's off.

[00:48:05] You know, my shoelace is broken or something.

[00:48:08] I don't know.

[00:48:10] Are you just dealing with a lot of clients who have like sensory sensitivity issues?

[00:48:13] Like, do you have like a lot of undiagnosed neurodivergence in your client base?

[00:48:17] Is that really what we're dealing with here?

[00:48:18] No, no.

[00:48:19] These are just things I notice and I'm magnifying them.

[00:48:23] Right.

[00:48:23] But it's just the people that come in and it's like, hey, you need to do this or I'm telling you this.

[00:48:30] And sometimes we to prepare people for competition.

[00:48:35] They don't know.

[00:48:35] Maybe I shouldn't say this on the podcast because some of them listen.

[00:48:38] But like, I will purposely change things to give them a new stress and see how they deal with it of, oh, yeah, go right now.

[00:48:48] It's like, well, I only had a minute rest.

[00:48:50] It's like, yeah, well, in a competition, you might only have a minute rest.

[00:48:52] So get on the fucking bar and go.

[00:48:53] That's it.

[00:48:54] Or, you know what?

[00:48:56] Something's happening.

[00:48:56] Like we need to face the other direction today when we're weightlifting.

[00:49:00] And it's like, what?

[00:49:01] It's like, yeah, you're going to face the window and look out instead of in.

[00:49:07] And seeing who can deal with those things and go, OK, whatever.

[00:49:11] And do the same workout versus the person that's completely thrown off by it.

[00:49:17] It's just an interesting experiment to do sometimes with what you're doing.

[00:49:21] Or sometimes I'll purposely have something planned and then they come in.

[00:49:25] I'm like, actually, you're maxing out today.

[00:49:26] But I didn't want to let you know because I just want to see when you're not anticipating it and not thinking about it, what happens?

[00:49:33] What's different about it?

[00:49:34] And a lot of times I find, too, that the people that are when people put so much anticipation on themselves to perform on a certain day and it's planned and there's time to think about it, be anxious about it, everything else.

[00:49:49] They don't do nearly as well as that day in most circumstances, right?

[00:49:54] Unless it's like, well, I was out drinking till 2 a.m. and it's 8 in the morning.

[00:49:57] You want me to max out?

[00:49:58] It's not happening.

[00:50:01] Otherwise, you take that person when they don't have all those expectations.

[00:50:04] And that anticipation and that anxiety about it.

[00:50:08] Just, yeah, keep going up.

[00:50:10] Go do another set, another set.

[00:50:11] It's like, yeah, you're working to a max today.

[00:50:14] It's like, okay.

[00:50:15] And usually it's a pretty good outcome because they didn't have so much going on internally with it.

[00:50:21] Yeah, I think you've just hit the nail on the head right there.

[00:50:24] It's all of the stories and the internal noise that actually is what's inhibiting performance.

[00:50:30] And so people look outside and blame the external conditions.

[00:50:33] Oh, it's because I had to look out the window.

[00:50:35] No, it's because you have so much internal noise.

[00:50:38] You cannot.

[00:50:39] I used to have this amazing kind of physical therapist guy who had become a taekwondo athlete.

[00:50:47] His family was originally from Korea.

[00:50:49] And he would talk about in kind of a way that sounded science-y, but he would talk about aligning your chi.

[00:50:56] And I knew exactly what he meant.

[00:50:58] Like he was using kind of a metaphoric way to describe when things are in physical and psychological alignment within yourself, right?

[00:51:07] When everything's just kind of clicking within yourself.

[00:51:10] And so like with these people that have all this internal noise, like anticipation, and I have to have my lucky socks on and all this kind of stuff, their chi is like, you know, figuratively.

[00:51:20] Like their figurative chi is like all over the map, right?

[00:51:23] But when they come in, it's almost like, you know, when someone, like when you crumple up a piece of paper and you throw it behind your head to hit the wastebasket.

[00:51:30] You don't really care if you hit it.

[00:51:31] You're just goofing around.

[00:51:32] And like, it's like the best free throw that's ever been made.

[00:51:35] It just like hits the wastebasket with surgical precision.

[00:51:38] It's like that because you didn't have any noise within yourself.

[00:51:43] You're just like, off I go.

[00:51:45] And as coaches, I think that's a capacity we want to develop in clients.

[00:51:49] We want them to quiet down their internal noise.

[00:51:52] And I think the lovely thing that you're also describing is as a coach, you are also providing evidence to the clients that they can cope.

[00:52:03] Look, you just did a thing when you were looking at the window.

[00:52:05] We brought in a crying baby, a barking dog.

[00:52:08] Now you can do your lift with the crying baby.

[00:52:10] Like you begin to develop the confidence as a client.

[00:52:14] Like, oh, yeah, you know what?

[00:52:16] I did that.

[00:52:16] I came and hung over and it still worked out, right?

[00:52:19] So you start to have evidence.

[00:52:20] Hung over workouts are the best, actually.

[00:52:23] I've always done good.

[00:52:25] Like you come in with zero expectations.

[00:52:26] Like I feel like shit, whatever.

[00:52:27] You come in and it's like, you know what?

[00:52:30] Your warm up's a little tough.

[00:52:32] But then like, I don't know, you get in this flow.

[00:52:33] Like I used to always have the best workouts when I did a little too much drinking the night before.

[00:52:38] And I think it's just that it was like.

[00:52:40] You heard it here.

[00:52:41] Yeah.

[00:52:41] It was like, I don't know if it was just like inhibition or just like lack of expectation.

[00:52:46] But something always seemed to like, I had really good days sometimes when it was just like, I was like, you know what?

[00:52:52] I went in with zero expectation that day.

[00:52:54] I thought less and less of myself that day and just came in.

[00:52:58] I was like, let's see what we can do today.

[00:53:01] And that's that.

[00:53:04] But in that same breath too, I didn't see this, but coaching at the elite weightlifting level, I had a good talk with a coach recently.

[00:53:14] And he, we were just talking about personality types.

[00:53:18] And, you know, a lot of this stuff comes down to managing personalities, expectations, you know, their mindset.

[00:53:25] And he was saying he noticed that in the sport, there's a lot of people that have some type of anxiety, you know, that's magnified a little bit, maybe past the normal level.

[00:53:40] And he was saying that he noticed the more anxiety people have in general, like the larger and larger, these grandiose goals and expectations they set for themselves.

[00:53:51] And that they're the ones that continue to let themselves down and can't build that momentum in the sport.

[00:54:00] Do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:54:02] Yeah.

[00:54:03] I think that's just hitting the nail on the head.

[00:54:07] And it's kind of tragic, because the simple solution would be set more modest goals that you can actually accomplish.

[00:54:13] And then you'll accomplish them and you'll feel better.

[00:54:16] It's like people are trapped in this cycle of grandiose, unrealistic goals and then inevitable disappointment.

[00:54:24] Right.

[00:54:24] And there's that saying, like, when you're an all or nothing thinker, most of the time you get nothing.

[00:54:30] And so I this I mean, it strikes me that this is again to go back to our conversation about athletes.

[00:54:37] This is a pattern that you learn earlier in life, because this is this is almost like child logic.

[00:54:45] Right.

[00:54:47] If if I set a big goal, then I will be inspired to reach it.

[00:54:52] And I'm not interested in the evidence that I have never reached this kind of goal ever in the past.

[00:54:58] But I feel like it's like I'm making a deal with the universe.

[00:55:01] Like, you know how little kids are like, OK, God, like if I don't have to eat my Brussels sprouts at this meal, like I promise I will stop hitting my sister for a week.

[00:55:13] Right.

[00:55:13] Like like little kids make deals with the universe.

[00:55:16] Right.

[00:55:16] Whereas grownups are like, oh, the universe plays dirty.

[00:55:18] I'm not going to make any deals with the universe.

[00:55:20] Right.

[00:55:20] So it's almost like a little kid way of thinking.

[00:55:23] And what's fascinating about behavior.

[00:55:25] I mean, there's lots of things.

[00:55:26] But one of the more fascinating human weirdnesses to me is.

[00:55:31] People who struggle often struggle because the way that they are attempting to reach a goal gets them the exact opposite.

[00:55:41] Like it's like it's like they have honed in on the exact way to not reach that goal.

[00:55:46] So, you know, let's say I'm in a relationship.

[00:55:48] I don't want my partner to leave me.

[00:55:50] What am I going to do?

[00:55:51] I'm going to try to control them.

[00:55:53] Love them through their phone.

[00:55:55] I'm going to love them.

[00:55:56] I'm going to snoop through their phone.

[00:55:57] I'm going to be like, why are you talking to that other girl?

[00:56:00] I saw you on social media.

[00:56:01] Like, you know.

[00:56:02] And then, of course, this person's going to be like, I'm out of here.

[00:56:04] You're crazy.

[00:56:04] Right.

[00:56:05] So I have now achieved the exact opposite of what I want.

[00:56:08] And so for all of you listening out there who are struggling, one of the things to ask yourself is, is the method that I have chosen to try to achieve my objectives actually getting me the exact opposite of what I'm trying to do?

[00:56:22] And if so, what if I actually just tried doing the opposite?

[00:56:26] At PN, we used to call this opposite day.

[00:56:28] It's like there's a Seinfeld episode about when, not Jerry, George, George tries to do an opposite day.

[00:56:35] Just opposite of everything I normally do.

[00:56:37] And then his life starts going great.

[00:56:39] So if you're out there listening and thinking, oh, my God, like I can't accomplish anything.

[00:56:44] How are you trying to accomplish it?

[00:56:46] And what if you tried the exact opposite?

[00:56:49] What would happen?

[00:56:50] It's a fun little experiment to try with clients.

[00:56:52] Like just do an opposite day experiment for a week or so.

[00:56:56] But that's exactly it.

[00:56:57] It's kind of like this tragic irony.

[00:56:59] It's like I'm going to do the exact thing that's going to ratchet up my anxiety and then have more anxiety.

[00:57:04] Can you give me an example of that for someone that's like trying to hit a certain weight or goal within like a strength sport?

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:17] Okay.

[00:57:18] So let's, I mean, this one's pretty obvious.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:21] What are most people doing and how do we apply the opposite?

[00:57:25] Yeah.

[00:57:25] Yeah.

[00:57:25] Okay.

[00:57:26] So let's take weight loss as an example.

[00:57:29] Right.

[00:57:30] Well, how do we start off?

[00:57:31] Well, we start off with a New Year's resolution.

[00:57:34] Right.

[00:57:34] We, we tell ourselves on December 31st, you're a piece of shit.

[00:57:38] You need to get into better shape starting tomorrow.

[00:57:41] New Year, new me.

[00:57:43] And I'm going to get up at four o'clock every day and I'm going to go to a boot camp.

[00:57:47] And then in the evening, I'm going to do some other, I'm going to, I'm going to train two days and I'm only going to live on baby carrots and water.

[00:57:54] It's just crazy, like aspirational, massive life overhaul kinds of things.

[00:58:00] And I'm exaggerating.

[00:58:02] But I think that we can all think of clients who are like, I need to make a change.

[00:58:08] I'm going to bite off the biggest possible piece of that change and try to do it all at once.

[00:58:15] What obviously works much better is with these kinds of clients to say, what if we just tried one small change for like two weeks?

[00:58:23] Like what if you just drank this bottle of water every day consistently, no matter what?

[00:58:29] I don't care if you have the flu.

[00:58:30] I don't care if you're traveling.

[00:58:31] But you got to drink one of these bottles of water consistently for two weeks.

[00:58:36] And then after two weeks, we'll add something.

[00:58:38] We'll add something of like equivalent difficulty.

[00:58:41] And then over a year, right?

[00:58:43] By the end of that year, you're going to be lean.

[00:58:45] You're going to be healthy.

[00:58:45] You're going to be thriving.

[00:58:46] But more importantly, you'll have a consistent routine.

[00:58:49] So I'm being hyperbolic in like how people go about it.

[00:58:52] But I think one of the most common ones is for people trying to lose weight is I'm going to make all of the changes all at once.

[00:58:59] And I'm going to live, try to live as a person who has levels of self-organization that I have never demonstrated ever in my life.

[00:59:09] I'm not a morning person, but now I'm getting up at 4 a.m.

[00:59:11] Like it's just ludicrous.

[00:59:13] I literally called my brother an asshole the other day about this because he like jumped in the family chat.

[00:59:18] He's like any in he's doing like a 10K coming up or a 10 mile race.

[00:59:23] And he does.

[00:59:24] He's not a runner.

[00:59:25] He doesn't really even work out right now.

[00:59:26] He has a membership to my gym, but I haven't seen him in the past month.

[00:59:30] And he's busy with work and things.

[00:59:32] But he's like, who wants to do the 75 hard and whole 30?

[00:59:35] Oh, my God.

[00:59:35] I was just thinking about 75 hard.

[00:59:37] And I was like, I was like, hey, why don't you start with showing up to the gym once a week?

[00:59:43] Or like not drinking, you know, he's 22.

[00:59:47] Or maybe like drink a little bit less.

[00:59:52] You know?

[00:59:53] Yeah.

[00:59:53] Let's start there.

[00:59:54] That's it.

[00:59:55] Yeah.

[00:59:56] That's such a beautiful example.

[00:59:57] And I think 75 hard is such a wonderful metaphor for this whole thing.

[01:00:01] It's like, okay, let's presume for a minute that I could complete a 75 hard.

[01:00:06] Like let's assume that's even possible, which for most people it's really just not.

[01:00:11] What's on the other side of that?

[01:00:13] Like has this equipped me in any way to sustain this?

[01:00:18] No.

[01:00:19] Like I've probably acquired quite a lot of maladaptive thought patterns and, you know, sports injuries.

[01:00:25] And, you know, like it's just, it's such a, I mean, sometimes it's fun to do an experiment.

[01:00:34] Right?

[01:00:34] What if I did something crazy for a week?

[01:00:35] What if I, what if I got up every morning, went to a boxing class for a week?

[01:00:38] That would be kind of fun.

[01:00:39] Right?

[01:00:39] Okay.

[01:00:40] So I'm in favor of these little experiments as ways to try something new, push your boundaries, get a little novelty in there.

[01:00:47] But I think right now our predominant cultural metaphor for how to make change is I'm going to do something quasi punitive and instantaneously different.

[01:01:01] Like significantly instantaneously different with no perspective on what's the life I want to live?

[01:01:08] What's the human being that I am now?

[01:01:10] Am I someone who even makes it to the gym once a week now?

[01:01:13] Because that, that factor isn't considered at all.

[01:01:16] And I think if you look at the language that's used in a lot of these programs too, it's like punishment, hard, difficult, you know, like even the whole kind of concept around how this should look is like discipline, punishment, pain, suffering, beast mode, all this kind of stuff.

[01:01:33] Like what if we just made it easy?

[01:01:36] Like what if we, what if we just made it a little, like instead of drinking five beers, maybe just drink four.

[01:01:42] How about we, how about we start there?

[01:01:44] Right?

[01:01:44] Like there's like a cultural allergy to making any kind of change easy.

[01:01:48] I don't know if it's like the Protestant work ethic, like we have to be experiencing some horrible pain in the service of like being better.

[01:01:56] Like there's just a deep suspicion of anything being just easy.

[01:02:02] Yeah.

[01:02:03] There's a lot there.

[01:02:04] So, and that's another thing I want to talk about is going into that, like making everything hard and this and that.

[01:02:11] It's like there's discipline and there's motivation.

[01:02:15] And there's a lot of this whole thing out there right now about discipline greater than motivation.

[01:02:20] But again, are we like, are we trying to suffer our whole lives?

[01:02:25] And it's, I had this thought recently of like looking at my lifestyle and I live a relatively healthy lifestyle.

[01:02:33] I just, I'm a creature of habit.

[01:02:35] I like eating healthy foods Monday through Friday.

[01:02:38] Typically, like I'll go out on the weekends and I can indulge a little bit, but I work out hard.

[01:02:44] And like, but me making those choices isn't hard.

[01:02:47] I, I want to make those choices where you see so many people have this like internal battle with themselves about, well, this is who I am.

[01:02:57] And I just eat this way and then go to, well, I'm a piece of shit now and I need to do this, but this is really hard.

[01:03:05] And then you got like Jocko Willock talking all about like, well, you need to be disciplined and this and that.

[01:03:12] But like motivation is a, is a great way to stay disciplined in many realms.

[01:03:21] But, but in a sense, it's like, am I just a disciplined person?

[01:03:26] Is there a reason I'm a disciplined person?

[01:03:28] Like what, what is it that, where do these two things meet?

[01:03:31] I guess this is a very ambiguous thought I'm throwing out here, but I think it's a big topic that people should probably hear about a little bit more of like,

[01:03:40] where do we have to battle with these two things or, and maybe how habits come into these things.

[01:03:48] And I think, you know, one of the first things to get clear on is agreeing on how we define these words.

[01:03:56] Because I think one of the problems is that they're, they're words that have a lot of baggage to them, a lot of cultural baggage and people use them in different ways.

[01:04:03] Right.

[01:04:04] So for me, the word discipline, like, I mean, people have pointed out, it comes from the, you know, it's related to the word, word disciple.

[01:04:12] And it kind of means to, like, for me, discipline is about a kind of productive self-leadership and a self-structuring and a self-organization around a purpose,

[01:04:23] around a larger purpose or some kind of value system or some kind of meaning.

[01:04:28] Right.

[01:04:29] It's not just being good or following the rules.

[01:04:33] And I think that's sort of one of the other meanings of discipline that people like to use.

[01:04:36] Right.

[01:04:36] Like we talk about, like, kids these days need more discipline.

[01:04:42] What they actually mean is kids need punishment.

[01:04:44] Like it's often discipline gets used as sort of a synonym for punishment.

[01:04:48] And that's not the sense that I like to use it in.

[01:04:50] I think that it's more important to think about discipline as a structured set of actions that you take to move towards a larger goal.

[01:05:00] Right.

[01:05:00] So, for example, I'm trying to learn a language right now.

[01:05:03] It is very effortful.

[01:05:05] I'm learning Russian, which is one of the like, it's ridiculous.

[01:05:08] Why am I learning this stupid language?

[01:05:10] Right.

[01:05:11] It's so hard.

[01:05:12] Even my Russian co-workers are like, damn, why are you doing that?

[01:05:15] Right.

[01:05:16] But so.

[01:05:17] So it's very effortful.

[01:05:19] Right.

[01:05:19] So something that requires discipline can be effortful.

[01:05:23] But you see that there is a point to it.

[01:05:25] Right.

[01:05:26] The further along I go in my self-structuring.

[01:05:29] So every day I have to make a choice.

[01:05:31] Do I scroll through TikTok or do I get on my little Duolingo app and feel like a dummy for 15 minutes a day?

[01:05:38] Right.

[01:05:39] And so discipline is that part of us or is the skill that says if you engage in activities that are effortful,

[01:05:46] but that are going towards some kind of end point that you value, this is a good thing to be doing.

[01:05:53] And a lot of the time, you know, it's not even that we need to have discipline to do the thing.

[01:05:59] So we need to have some kind of way to push through the resistance to doing the thing.

[01:06:03] And then once you're kind of rolling with it, you're actually pretty good.

[01:06:07] Right.

[01:06:07] It's kind of like it's not really going to the gym.

[01:06:09] That's the hardest.

[01:06:10] It's getting out the door.

[01:06:11] It's putting on your shoes and getting out the door.

[01:06:12] Once you're in the car or whatever, you're good.

[01:06:15] So discipline to me is a kind of productive or like a musician practicing an instrument.

[01:06:20] The better you get at that instrument, the more you can express yourself.

[01:06:23] The more I learn a language, the more I can express myself.

[01:06:26] So it's not punitive.

[01:06:29] I'm not structuring myself to punish myself.

[01:06:31] I'm structuring myself so that I can be fully actualized, if you can say it that way.

[01:06:36] Now motivation to me is like movement towards something.

[01:06:41] And we're always moving towards or against or sorry, away from things.

[01:06:45] Right.

[01:06:45] Like even amoebas, even single celled organisms or plants or fungi are moving towards or against

[01:06:51] things.

[01:06:52] Right.

[01:06:52] That's motivation to me.

[01:06:53] It's what direction are you moving in?

[01:06:55] So all of us are always motivated, just not always do the things that we think we should

[01:06:59] be motivated to do.

[01:07:01] So there's a lot of questions about like, well, which comes first, discipline or motivation?

[01:07:05] I'd argue that they're kind of reciprocal.

[01:07:07] Right.

[01:07:08] They're kind of mutually reinforcing.

[01:07:12] So to be disciplined towards something, I have to see some kind of value in it because

[01:07:18] discipline without a kind of motivation, a deeper motivation, like a sense of the purpose,

[01:07:24] like why the hell am I even doing this?

[01:07:26] That's going to fail.

[01:07:27] Right.

[01:07:27] Right.

[01:07:28] Now, you can live your life as an automaton.

[01:07:31] And I think it's not accidental that a lot of the people preaching harsh discipline come

[01:07:36] from a military background where it's like, yeah, we don't care about the purpose.

[01:07:39] Like we're just interested in the structure of like shining your shoes a certain way,

[01:07:43] making a bed a certain way.

[01:07:44] You know, I mean, there's a certain low level value to that where you're like, OK,

[01:07:48] I feel like an adult because I did a sequence of actions that I don't necessarily associate

[01:07:54] with a higher purpose, but that allow me to be a functioning human being.

[01:07:58] But I think that by and large, whatever you want to be disciplined about has to be connected

[01:08:05] to a motivation or a movement towards something that you desire.

[01:08:10] And you have to be aware that you will have competing motivations.

[01:08:15] Right.

[01:08:15] I don't like the term self-sabotage.

[01:08:17] I like the term competing motivations.

[01:08:18] It's like, oh, let's say I'm a parent.

[01:08:21] I'm very motivated to keep my child alive.

[01:08:24] I'm also very motivated to want to take care of myself so that I can be a better parent.

[01:08:29] Right.

[01:08:29] A lot of parents will will say like there's things that I need to do to fill my cup,

[01:08:34] fill my bank account as a parent so that I can be present for my kids,

[01:08:38] so that I can be a good and responsive and thoughtful parent.

[01:08:42] But these are often like time is finite.

[01:08:44] So these are competing motivations.

[01:08:46] Right.

[01:08:46] Time for my kid, time for myself.

[01:08:49] That's life.

[01:08:50] So.

[01:08:52] Most of the time, it's not that someone isn't motivated, it's that they haven't fully

[01:08:57] articulated what the larger purpose is for something, and they haven't acknowledged

[01:09:02] and recognized the competition of those motivations and they haven't done the work

[01:09:07] to sort of bring them into alignment for themselves.

[01:09:11] So that was very long winded and philosophical.

[01:09:13] I don't I don't know if like I helped answer your question there, but the relationship between

[01:09:18] those things, that's kind of how I look at it and define it, at least.

[01:09:21] Yeah, no, you did.

[01:09:23] And it's funny because I actually did a podcast earlier today, too, with Brianna Battles,

[01:09:27] who's like a pregnancy postpartum strength and conditioning coach.

[01:09:30] And we were talking about that of some people can be very healthy throughout their, you know,

[01:09:35] entire young adulthood.

[01:09:36] And then the moment they have a kid, they yeah, they have this new motivation or competing

[01:09:42] motivation that I need to be a parent.

[01:09:44] I need to put myself in the backseat and just put all my effort into this child's.

[01:09:50] Yet, again, there there is a different way to look at or a different motivation of, well,

[01:09:55] I want to be active in my kid's life.

[01:09:56] I want to be able to wrestle with them or, you know, play sports with them and coach them

[01:10:00] and do these things that are good reasons to be able to continue to take care of yourself.

[01:10:05] But it just yeah, it's it's it makes sense that it's not just you sabotaged yourself.

[01:10:11] It's you maybe just you could see it a different way as a I guess a competing motivation.

[01:10:16] Mm hmm.

[01:10:17] So it's not that you're weak either.

[01:10:19] Like a lot of the time, you know, we talked about coping before.

[01:10:22] It's not that people are weak for coping like, oh, you know, I came home after a stressful

[01:10:26] day at work and I drank some beer and ate some pizza.

[01:10:29] I'm not weak for doing that.

[01:10:31] My motivation in that moment was I feel bad.

[01:10:34] I don't want to feel bad.

[01:10:36] I'm very motivated to not feel bad right now.

[01:10:38] So I'm going to do something that I know for a fact will make me feel temporarily better.

[01:10:42] That's a different kind of logic than, oh, I'm just a weak sack of shit, right?

[01:10:45] Like affirming when someone tells you this as a client, they're like, oh, I suck.

[01:10:49] I did this.

[01:10:50] What I say is like how lovely that you chose to take care of yourself in that moment.

[01:10:55] And we're kind of like, what?

[01:10:59] Kind of kind of freaks them out a little bit.

[01:11:01] And interestingly, they often start to look for different behaviors for taking care of themselves.

[01:11:06] But that's really what's going on there.

[01:11:10] Yeah, it's all very interesting stuff, too, of of how things can change.

[01:11:14] Like, and motivations all of a sudden change.

[01:11:18] Like I had a conversation with a patient yesterday who we it was it was actually like a psychology session.

[01:11:25] I didn't even put my hands on her because she just needed someone to talk to.

[01:11:29] And it was she's she she has a full time job that she took on this consulting gig that's paying her more money and validating her feelings.

[01:11:36] And she didn't get these things from her other job.

[01:11:38] And it sounds like she didn't as a child.

[01:11:42] And she's chasing money, money, money.

[01:11:44] But then like she's put on 10 pounds.

[01:11:47] She has chronic migraines.

[01:11:49] Those have gotten worse.

[01:11:50] She's drinking more again.

[01:11:53] Her marriage doesn't sound like it's going well.

[01:11:56] And it's like, well, and she's talking about all these things she needs to change.

[01:12:01] And that's like, what?

[01:12:04] Why?

[01:12:04] What would happen if you just didn't work an extra 20 hours a week?

[01:12:09] Like money's nice.

[01:12:11] But there's a whole other host of motivational things you have here in front of you that you're running away from.

[01:12:16] And she's like, I know she's like, I'm I'm running after the good job and the money because why not?

[01:12:23] Or like, I don't get those.

[01:12:25] And I that's the dopamine hit she wants.

[01:12:28] So it's interesting how those things can motivate us in one way, but completely derail our lives and others, too.

[01:12:34] For sure.

[01:12:35] And that's, again, we're a coach.

[01:12:36] And it sounds like you jumped into the role of a coach there a little bit.

[01:12:39] But that's where a coach can be really helpful with something like motivational interviewing, where you're like, let's get all of the motivations on the table.

[01:12:47] And look at how they sit in relation to each other before we even talk about like what path you're going to choose through them.

[01:12:54] But let's get clear on like what you even think you're doing here.

[01:12:58] And I think that almost all of us would benefit from waking up every morning and just be like, what the hell am I even doing with myself?

[01:13:05] Like, it sounds like a flippant question, but like taking a moment and being like, why am I even doing this?

[01:13:12] For what purpose?

[01:13:14] Like, why does any of this action have a reason to live?

[01:13:17] How is it earning its rent?

[01:13:19] And I think we often get caught up in scripts and stories and cultural like we're in this cultural river.

[01:13:26] It's just like rushing us along with the current.

[01:13:30] And I mean, this is why they talk about things like a midlife crisis.

[01:13:33] I think midlife is when a lot of us pop our heads out of the river and go like, whoa, hey, like what am I doing in this river?

[01:13:40] Like, why am I even here?

[01:13:42] Where is this going?

[01:13:43] Seems like it's going to a waterfall.

[01:13:44] Not sure if that's the greatest thing for me.

[01:13:46] Right.

[01:13:47] So I think all of us could benefit from just a moment every day of just like, what the fuck am I even doing here?

[01:13:52] What?

[01:13:53] What is the purpose?

[01:13:54] Why am I doing this?

[01:13:55] What is the purpose?

[01:13:56] What am I working towards?

[01:13:57] And a lot of the time you're like, I don't know.

[01:14:00] I really I just kind of ended up here.

[01:14:03] And that's OK.

[01:14:04] Like sometimes you do end up in random places.

[01:14:06] But if the thing that you're doing is causing you suffering, it better have a good reason.

[01:14:11] It's like that challenge support thing we talked about in the beginning.

[01:14:15] Same thing.

[01:14:16] Suffering better have a purpose because otherwise it's just suffering and suffering without a purpose, without meaning has absolutely no value whatsoever.

[01:14:27] And so going back to everything we've talked about so far on this, how much of this can be related to to someone's sense of purpose or their lacking purpose?

[01:14:43] Yeah, I think in a way, the why is everything.

[01:14:46] Almost everything.

[01:14:47] I mean, sometimes we just do stuff to do stuff.

[01:14:49] Right.

[01:14:50] Yeah.

[01:14:50] But I think I think if we're looking at this holistically, I think the why is enormous.

[01:14:58] And if you're listening to this as a coach and you're like, oh, great.

[01:15:02] Now I have to have like deep existential conversations with my client along with working on their golf swing or whatever.

[01:15:09] That's not necessarily the case.

[01:15:11] But I think that we do need to open up a conversation with our clients about what is the relationship between what you're doing or what you want to do or the path you want to take and where you see it going.

[01:15:23] Like, what's the what's the point of this?

[01:15:25] If it's just, hey, I want to work on my golf swing because I like going golfing with my buddies.

[01:15:29] It's a fun thing to do on a Saturday.

[01:15:31] It helps me relax and unwind.

[01:15:33] Fantastic.

[01:15:34] Like, that's all I need to know.

[01:15:36] So it doesn't have to be anything deep.

[01:15:38] The why doesn't have to be, oh, I'm curing cancer or anything like that.

[01:15:41] Yeah.

[01:15:42] It can be something really incredibly banal.

[01:15:45] Oh, I like gardening.

[01:15:45] I just want to be able to bend down into the garden effectively.

[01:15:49] Cool.

[01:15:49] Like, we can work with that.

[01:15:50] But I think the why, the why is tremendously powerful if it is acknowledged and clarified and continually returned to as like a compass point by the coach.

[01:16:03] Like, okay, remember, we're doing this because reasons, because reasons, because reasons.

[01:16:08] But the why can also be a very insidious saboteur if it is not fully acknowledged, if it is not fully articulated, if it is not fully understood.

[01:16:18] So if it's like if the why turns out to be actually I want to make my dad happy, except I'm 47 and my dad is 67 and not that it even matters anymore.

[01:16:28] Like, that's a bad why.

[01:16:32] But if you never articulate that to yourself, you're just going to find yourself like your behavior will be driven by the why, whether you realize it or not.

[01:16:41] So we might as well get the why on the table and see, like, does this even make sense for you anymore?

[01:16:46] Could we come up with a better why?

[01:16:47] Maybe.

[01:16:47] I was going to say, are most people, and maybe we're getting better at it as like, you know, mental and emotional health as being more or less taboo.

[01:16:59] But do you think most people have an actual understanding for themselves of what their why is?

[01:17:06] No.

[01:17:08] No, I really don't.

[01:17:10] And that's why as coaches, like, we're awesome, frankly, because we we help people bring that into the world for themselves.

[01:17:20] We we we midwife it for them.

[01:17:22] We help them bring that into the world and get clear on it for themselves.

[01:17:25] So we don't give it to them.

[01:17:26] But we're like the navigators, you know, helping them align more to that compass point and understand what that compass point is.

[01:17:33] But I don't think most people really know why they do things.

[01:17:37] So so is your advice to them just to hire a coach or what things can they do?

[01:17:44] I mean, if you want if you want the sort of super low budget version of it, it's the five why's.

[01:17:49] Right.

[01:17:50] You sit down and you're like, why am I doing this?

[01:17:52] And then you get an answer.

[01:17:53] And then to that answer, you ask another why.

[01:17:55] Well, why am I why?

[01:17:57] Why that reason?

[01:17:58] And then you ask why again?

[01:17:59] Like you I mean, you can do it as many times as you want.

[01:18:01] Five seems to be like a good number.

[01:18:03] Sometimes you hit it in two.

[01:18:05] Right.

[01:18:05] Sometimes you might need 10.

[01:18:06] But to continually just ask yourself, like, why am I doing this?

[01:18:11] Because I want to look better.

[01:18:12] Well, why do I want to look better?

[01:18:14] Well, because I don't know.

[01:18:16] I want people to find me attractive.

[01:18:18] OK, well, why do I want people to find me attractive?

[01:18:20] Well, you know, I just got divorced.

[01:18:21] I'm in the dating market, you know, and I'm worried that people won't find me attractive.

[01:18:26] Well, why does that matter to me?

[01:18:27] You know what I mean?

[01:18:27] Like so you can kind of get deeper and deeper and deeper and you just end up with something like I just want to find love.

[01:18:33] It's usually like I want to find love.

[01:18:35] I want to be OK.

[01:18:36] That's probably the deepest why for most people.

[01:18:39] So a little trick, though, is sometimes if you ask why, like if you use the why word, it can be a little aggressive because sometimes when we're angry, we say why.

[01:18:50] Right.

[01:18:50] Like, why did you do that?

[01:18:53] Right.

[01:18:53] That's I don't actually care why you did that.

[01:18:55] I just want to tell you that I'm mad that you did that.

[01:18:57] So another way to frame it is what or how.

[01:19:02] Right.

[01:19:02] How would reaching that goal matter to you or what would that goal mean to you if you got it or what would change in your life?

[01:19:11] What would be better or different if you got to that goal?

[01:19:13] So I actually like to use what and how rather than why.

[01:19:18] What about that feels so important or urgent for you right now?

[01:19:22] That's another way to ask the question.

[01:19:24] So that's something anyone can do.

[01:19:26] And I would argue that you should.

[01:19:29] I always tell my clients this.

[01:19:31] Think on paper.

[01:19:32] Don't just think in your head, but write down the thoughts that you're having.

[01:19:36] There's something magical that happens when you write down your thoughts.

[01:19:39] And as you look at the paper, you know, and you're doing your five whys, your five whats or your five hows or whatever it is, something will change in you with your relationship with that reason.

[01:19:52] So, so, yeah, that's that's super low budget.

[01:19:55] Like anybody can do that.

[01:19:57] Last question.

[01:20:00] We've been on here longer than I said, but it's been a really good conversation.

[01:20:04] We didn't even get to half of what I thought we were going to talk about.

[01:20:08] So, you mentioned a few times someone having a deep inner core.

[01:20:13] What is that?

[01:20:13] How do you define that?

[01:20:16] Okay, well, people talk about it differently.

[01:20:20] You know, there's different ways of describing the same thing.

[01:20:23] If I say to you, where do you feel like your deepest sense of self is?

[01:20:29] Like point on your body to where you feel like your deepest sense of self is.

[01:20:35] What would you point to?

[01:20:37] Right here.

[01:20:39] Yeah, that's where most people do it, right?

[01:20:41] There's something about this part of our body right here where we feel like the real us-ness of us lives.

[01:20:50] And so, I think it could be because if you think about the vagus nerve and how the vagus nerve works.

[01:21:00] So, for those of you listening, the vagus nerve is a very complex nerve system that runs from your skull, kind of innervates the face, down the neck, innervates the internal organs.

[01:21:09] But a lot of the traffic on the vagus nerve is from downstairs to upstairs.

[01:21:14] So, it sends sensations, cues, signals, whatever you want to call them, sensory information downstairs to upstairs to the brain to integrate.

[01:21:22] So, this is where gut feelings, if you can call it that, come from.

[01:21:27] Our body is able to pick up information from the environment and from our internal, like our internal environment and our external environment, organize it, send it upstairs to the brain, and then the brain makes sense of it.

[01:21:38] And kind of decides what to do with it.

[01:21:40] And people have different levels of ability to make sense of this information, right?

[01:21:45] We've all met those people who are like, oh, I forgot to eat today.

[01:21:48] Or, oh my God, I haven't peed for 13 hours.

[01:21:51] You know what I mean?

[01:21:52] Like, they've just completely, or I've been sitting in the same weird desk position for 13 hours and I haven't noticed, right?

[01:21:58] So, we all know people with poor interoception.

[01:22:01] But, in general, what we want to cultivate is an awareness of this part of ourselves that feels like the most like us, that integrates body information, that integrates emotions, that integrates thoughts, that integrates values, the philosophies, the beliefs that we have, and kind of like weaves them together in something that feels really aligned and right.

[01:22:30] In internal family systems, they call this the capital S, self.

[01:22:35] But it's kind of like the sense of yourself that you have when you're doing or experiencing something that just like internally feels right, like vibes.

[01:22:46] Like it just vibes with you.

[01:22:48] It's that, it's that, it's not quite flow, but it's like when something clicks for you and you're like, yes, this is the thing that I should be doing.

[01:22:56] It's like a felt sense of rightness.

[01:22:58] That's what I'm talking about.

[01:23:00] That's the internal compass.

[01:23:01] And most of the time, we kind of ignore it or we overthink it or we're like, well, you know, maybe I'm being unreasonable.

[01:23:08] Like maybe you have this crazy thing you want to do that you've always just held it in here, right?

[01:23:12] It always felt so right to you whenever you did it.

[01:23:15] Like maybe you wanted to, I don't know, play the trumpet.

[01:23:17] Like ever since you were two years old, you just love the sound of the trumpet.

[01:23:19] And like whenever you touch a trumpet, you'd be like, oh, this would be so cool if I could be like, I don't know, Louis Armstrong, right?

[01:23:25] But you've always been like, oh, no, I can't.

[01:23:29] You've ignored your internal compass to do that.

[01:23:32] So I think a lot of people do that all the time.

[01:23:35] We get into relationships that don't align.

[01:23:37] We get into jobs that don't align.

[01:23:38] We make moves that don't align.

[01:23:40] We buy houses that don't align.

[01:23:41] We get with partners like all these things because we're like, well, you know, this house isn't a good part of town.

[01:23:47] Like we talk ourselves into and out of the felt sense of rightness.

[01:23:52] And it never works.

[01:23:54] It never works.

[01:23:57] So the more that we can sense into and identify that interoception kind of intersection, if I can say it that way, again, sensations, emotions, thoughts, values.

[01:24:10] When all of that integrates and comes together, that's your internal compass.

[01:24:14] And that's what you want to cultivate an awareness of.

[01:24:18] And it's a little bit quiet sometimes, most of the time.

[01:24:20] It's not as loud as cultural noise.

[01:24:24] But if you don't align with it, you will.

[01:24:26] That's when you feel anxiety, like the shitty anxiety, not the fun, like pre-performance.

[01:24:31] I'm about to do a cool thing anxiety.

[01:24:33] But like the debilitating, grinding, corrosive anxiety of just like, I hate my life.

[01:24:39] Like the Sunday scaries is a good example of that kind of anxiety.

[01:24:43] You're just like, I hate my life.

[01:24:44] I hate my job.

[01:24:45] I don't want to do this.

[01:24:48] Yeah, so part of our job as coaches is teaching people to find and abide by the inner compass.

[01:24:53] And sometimes what the inner compass says is inconvenient and we don't want to hear it.

[01:24:57] And so that's why we're like, ah, shut up.

[01:24:59] But it never works.

[01:25:00] You can tell it to shut up for a month, a year, 10 years, whatever.

[01:25:03] It's always going to bite you in the ass if you ignore it.

[01:25:07] So you might as well listen.

[01:25:09] So I think now, so we're going to, so Krista also has a lot of background in nutrition and

[01:25:15] habit change we were going to talk about today.

[01:25:19] But this was just too good to pass up on.

[01:25:21] So, but now we have to have a podcast on parenting and sports.

[01:25:28] It sounds like we could do a whole nother one on the deep inner core.

[01:25:32] And then as well as nutrition and behavior change and habit change.

[01:25:37] So, yeah, we got, we, this was, this was, this was meaty, I think, or like what happens

[01:25:41] when you live your life outside of the internal company?

[01:25:43] There's so many offshoots from this.

[01:25:46] I'm going very philosophical with this.

[01:25:49] Anything else you wanted to add?

[01:25:50] I don't want to take up too much of your time today.

[01:25:53] No, this was great.

[01:25:55] I mean, I think maybe the one thing I would add is that thinking about these dimensions

[01:25:59] of life might seem tangential to athletic performance, let's say.

[01:26:04] But by and large, what I have found in my career as a coach and teacher, you know, which is like

[01:26:09] close to 30 years now, is that on some level, especially for longevity in a career, like

[01:26:17] it's just a little hobby you're playing around with, who cares?

[01:26:19] But if you want longevity in an athletic career, at some point, you're going to have to think

[01:26:25] about this stuff, even at the most basic level.

[01:26:28] So it might seem like, ah, this is a distraction from the really important conversations around

[01:26:33] which bar has the best knurling.

[01:26:37] But these questions don't fix themselves just by ignoring them, right?

[01:26:43] So it really is worth considering basic stuff.

[01:26:46] Why am I doing this?

[01:26:47] What am I doing here?

[01:26:48] How am I showing up to this?

[01:26:50] Is the method that I'm choosing to reach my goals really optimal?

[01:26:55] These are all important things to think about.

[01:26:57] So I strongly recommend that you don't consider them as tangential to your athletic career,

[01:27:04] but rather central.

[01:27:05] And I think too, another big one is, is the outcome as important to me as I'm making it

[01:27:13] out to be in the grand scheme of things?

[01:27:16] Yes, yes.

[01:27:17] I'm sorry to cause sad feelings in everybody.

[01:27:20] Nobody fucking cares.

[01:27:22] Thank you.

[01:27:23] What your numbers are.

[01:27:24] Thank you.

[01:27:24] What your body fat is.

[01:27:25] How fast you ran.

[01:27:27] The marathon goes past my house in Vancouver several times a year, actually.

[01:27:32] And there's always family members out there clapping and they have signs like, go mom and

[01:27:37] that kind of stuff.

[01:27:38] But they don't care what your time is.

[01:27:41] They just want to be there to love you.

[01:27:43] You know, and to root for mom or dad or whoever that's like, just doing a thing that it seems

[01:27:48] like mom or dad loves.

[01:27:49] But they don't like it doesn't register for them at all.

[01:27:53] I can't stress to you enough the depths of not caring that people have about any performance

[01:27:59] you will ever do.

[01:28:01] So free yourself from thinking that anyone gives a shit about your numbers.

[01:28:06] Yeah.

[01:28:07] You know, that's I guess this would be one of my closing remarks here is I think for

[01:28:12] me, fortunately, I was never a great athlete.

[01:28:15] I've always been like a solid B level athlete.

[01:28:18] I'll show up to things.

[01:28:20] My family comes to support me.

[01:28:22] Right.

[01:28:22] And I, I, I like to be competitive.

[01:28:24] I've competed in these sports and I set goals for myself and things.

[01:28:27] And I think I've been doing it so long.

[01:28:31] Like I used to put more onto it, but now I'm like, you know what?

[01:28:34] I have a business to run.

[01:28:35] I have a house.

[01:28:36] I have a dog.

[01:28:37] I have staff members.

[01:28:38] I need to make sure like we're meeting payroll and putting food on their table and they're

[01:28:43] able to feed their kids.

[01:28:44] And I have so many things to look at as far as like reward with like growing my employees

[01:28:50] and what they can do with their life.

[01:28:53] And there's so much more to, to life.

[01:28:55] And like, I still love these sports and I have goals, but it's not the end of the world

[01:29:01] if I don't do is, is, you know, so hot, but I've always been like that.

[01:29:05] And I think I'm kind of grateful for that, that like, I remember like even in college,

[01:29:08] like we lost like an intramural softball game and my roommate is punching the roof of

[01:29:12] my little Honda Civic and I'm like, dude, it's like, I wish we won, but like, it's okay

[01:29:18] that we lost.

[01:29:19] Like what's going to happen in five years?

[01:29:20] Like this isn't going to matter, you know?

[01:29:23] Yeah.

[01:29:24] Yeah.

[01:29:25] So I just think, yeah, looking at, you know, take a step back and look at everything around

[01:29:29] you too and be like, how much does, does the athletic endeavor matter?

[01:29:33] Because once you can't do it anymore, there's still way more to life because at some point it

[01:29:38] will be taken away, maybe temporarily, maybe forever.

[01:29:41] We never know.

[01:29:44] And you have to, at some point you have to look at whatever sport you're doing and loving.

[01:29:46] And I've loved a lot of activities in my life.

[01:29:49] You have to look at it and go, all I'm, all I'm doing here is putting a ball through a hoop

[01:29:55] or hitting a ball with a stick or lifting a heavy thing, like, or just running really

[01:30:00] fast.

[01:30:02] Like you have to sort of name what you're doing and be like, oh yeah, it's just hitting a

[01:30:06] ball with a stick actually for fun.

[01:30:09] Yeah.

[01:30:11] Simple.

[01:30:12] All right.

[01:30:13] Well, thank you so much, Krista, for coming on.

[01:30:17] And like I said, I had an agenda full of nutrition and behavior and habit change stuff, but we'll

[01:30:24] have to definitely do this again because this was super insightful.

[01:30:26] You're a great speaker, by the way, like you were able to articulate things so well.

[01:30:29] So I appreciate all the work you've put into maybe what is your purpose in life.

[01:30:35] I don't know.

[01:30:39] And where can people find you, Krista?

[01:30:43] You know, the usual socials, Instagram, at Stumptuous, Facebook.

[01:30:47] I'm the only Krista Scott Dixon in the world as far as I know.

[01:30:50] So if you Google me, you can pretty, pretty easily find me, I'd say.

[01:30:53] We're not related, by the way.

[01:30:56] Not that we know of.

[01:31:00] And you've written quite a bit of articles, too, and done some teachings and things for

[01:31:04] precision nutrition, which I think for our audience, a lot of people are familiar with

[01:31:09] them.

[01:31:10] So you can look for some of your...

[01:31:11] Yeah, head on to their site.

[01:31:12] Lots of stuff there.

[01:31:14] Cool.

[01:31:15] Awesome.

[01:31:15] Well, thank you so much.

[01:31:16] This was a pleasure.

[01:31:17] And I hope we can have you back in the future.

[01:31:19] Well, I hope to be invited back after this performance.

[01:31:22] Awesome.

[01:31:24] Thanks for having me.

[01:31:25] No problem.