In this episode, Jimmy sits down with the legendary Dr. Gail Deyle — clinician-scientist, mentor, and one of the most cited researchers in orthopaedic manual physical therapy.
Dr. Deyle breaks down:
- The defining trait of clinicians who excel after fellowship
- What separates great mentors from good ones
- Real-world stories of PTs catching critical medical conditions
- The biggest mistake clinicians make in their early reasoning
- Why MSK health is a global opportunity for PTs
- How clinicians can start contributing to research
- The power of collaboration between clinicians and research faculty
A concise but insight-rich conversation with one of the most respected voices in the profession.
00:00 – Intro: Why Dr. Gail Deyle is a PT legend
00:36 – Welcoming Gail + Reno conference gambling banter
01:15 – What trait predicts fellowship success?
02:36 – Seeing former mentees grow into experts
03:24 – What makes a great mentor?
04:43 – PTs as frontline diagnosticians
06:48 – Real examples: PTs catching serious conditions
08:22 – The biggest unlock in advanced clinical reasoning
10:04 – Making implicit reasoning explicit
11:35 – Communication, feedback & the mentor/mentee relationship
12:00 – PTs as an untapped force in global MSK health
13:10 – Red light / green light: habits to stop and start
14:55 – Dr. Deyle named in the top 2% of cited researchers
15:28 – Why clinicians should participate in research
15:48 – Closing
00:00:01 --> 00:00:01 All right,
00:00:01 --> 00:00:03 today we've got a legend in the house,
00:00:03 --> 00:00:05 someone who spent his career standing at
00:00:05 --> 00:00:07 the crossroads of science,
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 clinical mastery, and military precision.
00:00:10 --> 00:00:10 Dr.
00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 Gail Dow is the clinician scientist who
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 doesn't just talk evidence,
00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 he generates it.
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 He's mentored generations of residents and
00:00:17 --> 00:00:18 fellows
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 pushed PT diagnostic competency forward
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23 and published clinical trials that have
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 shaped how we treat chronic
00:00:25 --> 00:00:27 musculoskeletal conditions.
00:00:27 --> 00:00:28 If you care about advanced clinical
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 reasoning, fellowship training,
00:00:30 --> 00:00:31 or the future of PT's role in global
00:00:31 --> 00:00:33 health, buckle up.
00:00:33 --> 00:00:34 This is going to be a good one.
00:00:35 --> 00:00:35 Let's get into it.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:37 Gail, welcome back to the show.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:38 Well,
00:00:38 --> 00:00:39 thank you very much for allowing me to
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 sit here with you today.
00:00:43 --> 00:00:45 Last time we recorded, we were in person.
00:00:45 --> 00:00:48 We were at the AOMT conference in Reno.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:49 So my first question is,
00:00:50 --> 00:00:51 did you make it out of there with
00:00:51 --> 00:00:52 all your money or did you lose?
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 Did you leave some in the machines or
00:00:54 --> 00:00:55 on the tables?
00:00:55 --> 00:00:59 No, I escaped there relatively unscathed.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 My problem was I was up twenty five
00:01:01 --> 00:01:02 bucks in the first day and then down
00:01:03 --> 00:01:03 one hundred twenty five bucks.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 That's how that's how the law of averages
00:01:06 --> 00:01:06 gets you.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 Yes, yes, yes.
00:01:10 --> 00:01:11 I didn't go through that.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 That's because you're smarter than me.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:13 That's why you're the guest and I'm just
00:01:13 --> 00:01:14 the silly host.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:15 All right, so let's start with this.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 You've mentored physical therapists across
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 every level of training,
00:01:20 --> 00:01:21 but I want to know this.
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 What's one trait you see in the clinicians
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 who really take off after fellowship?
00:01:28 --> 00:01:29 Is there one trait or many that you
00:01:29 --> 00:01:32 probably can see in people and when you
00:01:32 --> 00:01:32 see it,
00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 you know this person's going to take off?
00:01:35 --> 00:01:35 Well...
00:01:37 --> 00:01:41 I think it is the clinician that realizes
00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 patients are complicated.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 And with that,
00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 there comes a certain humility you have to
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 have to think that no matter how much
00:01:50 --> 00:01:52 effort I put into this or how hard
00:01:52 --> 00:01:53 I've worked,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 I'm still relatively unprepared to take
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 care of the complexities that I'm likely
00:01:59 --> 00:02:01 to encounter on a day-to-day basis.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 And I think that the more hungry that
00:02:06 --> 00:02:08 either residents or fellows when they go
00:02:08 --> 00:02:11 into training are, you know,
00:02:11 --> 00:02:13 the more they really want to be able
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 to offer their patients that's uniquely
00:02:17 --> 00:02:17 skillful.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:19 You know, they just,
00:02:20 --> 00:02:24 they bloom in the training and their
00:02:24 --> 00:02:27 trajectory for their post-training growth
00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 is really more sharply elevated and they
00:02:31 --> 00:02:33 just, they continue on that pathway.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:34 Yeah.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:35 And you've been doing this for a long
00:02:35 --> 00:02:35 time.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 Is it fun, I imagine,
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 to run into people you mentored five, ten,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 fifteen years ago and kind of listen to
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 the stories of where they've gone since
00:02:43 --> 00:02:43 then?
00:02:44 --> 00:02:45 Oh, yes.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 And at times it's almost like the
00:02:48 --> 00:02:49 mentoring role has changed.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:50 You know,
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 I can go to them and talk to
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 them or ask them questions.
00:02:54 --> 00:02:55 And, you know,
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 they've been able to specialize in things
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 that I have not or they've gained
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 experiences that I don't have.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:01 And,
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 So it just kind of flips the mentor-mentee
00:03:05 --> 00:03:05 thing.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:08 But that's one of the most rewarding
00:03:08 --> 00:03:09 things, I think,
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 of someone who has been in my position
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 and had some opportunity to work with and
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 help the growth of some of these
00:03:18 --> 00:03:18 clinicians.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:19 Yeah.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:20 Well, let me flip it then.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:24 You've worked as a mentor with mentees.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 Not everybody probably...
00:03:27 --> 00:03:28 should be a mentor.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:30 I just mean like, what, what are, what,
00:03:30 --> 00:03:31 what makes a good mentor?
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 How did you know that mentoring, um, it's,
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 it's one thing to be a good clinician,
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 but I'm guessing vastly different to be a
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 mentor to someone else to do that.
00:03:41 --> 00:03:42 Yeah, I think,
00:03:42 --> 00:03:43 I think you have to be,
00:03:44 --> 00:03:45 be willing to, um,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 be a role model and to,
00:03:49 --> 00:03:50 to be exemplary.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 And, and there's times when
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 You have to break down what you're doing
00:03:56 --> 00:03:57 so it's consumable,
00:03:58 --> 00:04:01 so they can see exactly what that is.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 And then, you know,
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 there's just times when the ethics of
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 certain situations, you know,
00:04:10 --> 00:04:11 will challenge a mentor.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:13 And, you know,
00:04:14 --> 00:04:15 you have to be willing to show your
00:04:15 --> 00:04:16 cards.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:17 And I think, you know,
00:04:18 --> 00:04:19 you want to make sure you stay on
00:04:19 --> 00:04:20 the high ground and
00:04:22 --> 00:04:25 so that the mentee can see the complexity
00:04:25 --> 00:04:26 of the decisions you had to make,
00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 how you got there,
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 and why you did what you did.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:32 Now, Gail,
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 you're a strong advocate for physical
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 therapists as frontline diagnosticians.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 Is there a story that you've got,
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 a moment when a PT's diagnostic skill
00:04:42 --> 00:04:46 really changed a patient's medical path?
00:04:46 --> 00:04:46 Anything come to mind?
00:04:48 --> 00:04:48 Well,
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 I guess I've seen it so many times
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 where, um, we've had, um,
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 physical therapists, you know,
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 take patients that have been sent to us
00:04:59 --> 00:05:00 and they've been through a fair medical
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 process and their diagnosis is such that,
00:05:04 --> 00:05:04 you know,
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 they do not belong in physical therapy.
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 And it's, it's hard for,
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 for one to stand out, but these things,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:12 you know,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:13 ranging from
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 know trainees being in a line with chest
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 pain and they were having you know
00:05:19 --> 00:05:22 myocardial infarction to tumors growing in
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 in young people's long bones to um you
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 know infections and leukemia and you know
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 it just the list keeps on and on
00:05:32 --> 00:05:34 but you know i think physical therapists
00:05:35 --> 00:05:36 you know,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 do really well at being able to interview
00:05:39 --> 00:05:40 their patients,
00:05:40 --> 00:05:41 particularly if they've had some advanced
00:05:42 --> 00:05:42 clinical training,
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 residency and fellowship level training,
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 and they can quickly determine, you know,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 this just does not seem to be appropriate
00:05:52 --> 00:05:53 for physical therapy.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:54 So it's, you know,
00:05:55 --> 00:05:57 I have some teaching examples sometimes
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 that I use, but, you know,
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 it happens frequently enough that it's
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 really not one unique thing,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:05 but it's almost like
00:06:06 --> 00:06:06 You know,
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 if you had oversight to all the therapists
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 that work in most of the settings that
00:06:12 --> 00:06:12 I've been in,
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 it's probably every other day somebody
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 pulls some patient out of there that
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 doesn't belong in that clinic.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:20 That's great.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:22 You mentioned advanced clinical reasoning.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:24 When you think about that,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:25 when you think about advanced clinical
00:06:25 --> 00:06:25 reasoning,
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 what's the biggest unlock that most
00:06:29 --> 00:06:32 clinicians miss early in their careers?
00:06:32 --> 00:06:33 Is there something holding them back?
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 You mentioned a minute ago, really,
00:06:35 --> 00:06:38 really being able to understand that the
00:06:38 --> 00:06:39 patients are complex.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:41 That's got to be one of those unlocks.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:42 Is there anything else?
00:06:42 --> 00:06:46 Well, I think for someone like me,
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 who I was very internal
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 with my processes.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:53 And, you know,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 I think that there was a lot going
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 on and I think I'd had lots of
00:06:57 --> 00:06:58 experience and there was things that,
00:06:59 --> 00:06:59 you know,
00:06:59 --> 00:07:01 I could just kind of tell what it
00:07:01 --> 00:07:02 was when you see it walk in the
00:07:02 --> 00:07:03 door.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 But until you bring your reasoning out and
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 look at it and examine it and probably
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 have somebody help you with that,
00:07:11 --> 00:07:13 you're not, you're not going to be as,
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 as clean and as efficient as you could
00:07:17 --> 00:07:17 be.
00:07:17 --> 00:07:18 And so,
00:07:18 --> 00:07:18 You know,
00:07:18 --> 00:07:21 if you take what's implicit and make it
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 explicit and get it out where it can
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 be seen and where you're, you know,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:27 you're making mistakes or you're jumping
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 to certain things or you're not exactly
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 asking the right thing or you've missed
00:07:32 --> 00:07:32 opportunities.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 Those are the kinds of things that will
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 elude someone that probably hasn't been
00:07:37 --> 00:07:41 through some formal training in how to get
00:07:41 --> 00:07:42 better at clinical reasoning.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 It sounds like it's the physical therapy
00:07:45 --> 00:07:46 equivalent of you got to show your work,
00:07:46 --> 00:07:48 not just your answer in math class.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:50 It's pretty much it.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:51 And there's a certain willingness.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:52 I mean,
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 it's a little invasive to have someone
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 come into your space and say, well, okay.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 But there was some things you could have
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 done better here.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 And your thoughts are personal and so on
00:08:05 --> 00:08:05 and so forth.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 So it really is a willingness on the
00:08:08 --> 00:08:10 mentor's side to get a little bit of
00:08:10 --> 00:08:10 the
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 mentee on them and you know and to
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15 be a little invasive and then you know
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 and then mentee has to be accepting of
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 that you know if you get if you
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 get defensive then that's where where
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 growth stops yeah i i imagine setting good
00:08:25 --> 00:08:27 expectations early on in that process of
00:08:28 --> 00:08:29 i'm going to push you but there's a
00:08:29 --> 00:08:30 reason to it it's not me trying to
00:08:31 --> 00:08:33 step on toes or or make you defensive
00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 there's a method to it so i imagine
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 setting good expectations is probably
00:08:37 --> 00:08:37 important
00:08:38 --> 00:08:39 Yes.
00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 I think good communication both ways there
00:08:42 --> 00:08:43 is very helpful.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:44 Yeah.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 You've said that physical therapists are
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 an untapped contributor to world health.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 What's one global health problem you think
00:08:52 --> 00:08:56 PTs are really uniquely positioned to help
00:08:56 --> 00:08:56 and impact?
00:08:57 --> 00:08:58 I think, you know,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 just musculoskeletal health, you know,
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 worldwide would really
00:09:05 --> 00:09:10 benefit from unfettered access to physical
00:09:10 --> 00:09:12 therapists and their low-risk,
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 high-benefit strategies, you know,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 things that don't push patients down the
00:09:18 --> 00:09:23 pipeline of advanced imaging and invasive
00:09:23 --> 00:09:23 things, you know,
00:09:23 --> 00:09:27 whether it's diagnostic invasive things or
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 whether it's treatment invasive things,
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 that there's so much that physical therapy
00:09:33 --> 00:09:34 would have to offer.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:35 And, you know,
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 and I think at times we have this
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 wrong with third party payers thinking,
00:09:41 --> 00:09:42 well, you know,
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44 we'll save some money and we won't pay
00:09:44 --> 00:09:46 for physical therapy or,
00:09:47 --> 00:09:48 and really it's the opposite.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:49 You know,
00:09:49 --> 00:09:51 you need to open your portals up and
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 get these patients, you know,
00:09:53 --> 00:09:57 out of probably the whole medicalized
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 pipeline and get them into someone that
00:10:00 --> 00:10:01 can help these patients
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 be more active and be healthier and,
00:10:04 --> 00:10:05 you know,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 and have things that some strategies that
00:10:08 --> 00:10:10 are, that are lower risk and less costly.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 All right, Gail,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:14 we're going to play red light,
00:10:14 --> 00:10:16 green light here for all the clinicians
00:10:16 --> 00:10:17 listening.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 What's one habit you think they should
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 stop doing tomorrow and one habit they
00:10:22 --> 00:10:22 should start.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:25 What's a red light and a green light.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 If they want to become sharper, safer,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:28 more effective,
00:10:28 --> 00:10:31 what do you typically suggest?
00:10:31 --> 00:10:31 I would say,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:33 If possible,
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 I would try to make your administrative
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 processes as efficient as you can.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:39 Yeah.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 And spend more time with your patient.
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 That would be my big green light.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:44 Get your hands on them,
00:10:45 --> 00:10:47 get your interaction to be more intensive.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 And, you know,
00:10:50 --> 00:10:54 I think it's very hard to replace a
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 highly qualified and trained physical
00:10:56 --> 00:10:57 therapist in meds for our clinical
00:10:58 --> 00:10:58 settings.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 And so the intensity of the interaction
00:11:00 --> 00:11:01 between the physical therapist
00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 and the patient is, I think,
00:11:03 --> 00:11:04 where the true value is.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:07 So that's definitely green light.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:08 All right, excellent.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:10 Gail, this was outstanding.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 Nice little short burst of insight.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 You spent a career proving what skilled,
00:11:15 --> 00:11:17 well-trained physical therapists can do,
00:11:17 --> 00:11:18 not just for patients,
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 but for the profession and for global
00:11:20 --> 00:11:20 health.
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 Love your mix of curiosity, rigor,
00:11:23 --> 00:11:24 mentorship,
00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 exactly what keeps pushing together
00:11:25 --> 00:11:26 physical therapy.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 So thanks for doing what you do here
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 with AOMT and for the profession.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:32 Well, thank you very much, Jimmy,
00:11:32 --> 00:11:33 for having me.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 And I would add one thing.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 A colleague sent something to me a couple
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41 of days ago and posted on Baylor,
00:11:41 --> 00:11:43 where I have a faculty appointment as a
00:11:43 --> 00:11:44 full professor.
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 They've got my name and profile and that
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 I am in the top two percent of
00:11:52 --> 00:11:54 cited researchers in my field,
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 which is truly amazing for me just to
00:11:57 --> 00:11:57 think.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 I'm a grassroots guy.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 You know, I worked with colleagues.
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 We took clinical questions that were
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 relevant and we did studies to try to
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 get answers to those questions and we
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 pushed them out into quality journals.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:15 And just to see that to be in
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 the top two percent of cited researchers
00:12:19 --> 00:12:20 is amazing.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:21 That is amazing.
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 How what led you to tackle on
00:12:25 --> 00:12:27 big questions like that?
00:12:27 --> 00:12:28 Doing research,
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30 none of those are small questions.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:30 It's got to be big.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 What sort of made you feel like, yeah,
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 I can do this and it's worthy because
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 the effort is large?
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 Well, I think it is.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:42 In some of these trials,
00:12:42 --> 00:12:45 it's about equivalent to raising a child.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 But when you take something from concept
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 to publication, it may take a few years.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:51 And
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 I think it's just being hungry as a
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 clinician and you have these questions and
00:12:57 --> 00:13:00 the literature doesn't provide the answer
00:13:00 --> 00:13:01 to it.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:02 You think you see this,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 but you don't know.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 And so now it's a matter of putting
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 it to the rigor of a clinical trial.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:11 And I think clinicians and those that
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 indeed have some advanced training and
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 some advanced education are in a great
00:13:16 --> 00:13:16 position
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19 to design clinical trials.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:19 And, you know,
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 at times you may want to consult with
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 people that are in full-time research
00:13:24 --> 00:13:25 positions and so forth.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:26 It isn't like you're,
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 you're out there all by yourself, but,
00:13:30 --> 00:13:30 you know,
00:13:30 --> 00:13:34 I think a group of motivated clinicians,
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 you know, working and, you know,
00:13:37 --> 00:13:39 and most of our research was,
00:13:39 --> 00:13:40 was unfunded,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42 not connected to any big grants or
00:13:42 --> 00:13:43 anything like that.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:44 And, but,
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 so I think it points to the power
00:13:46 --> 00:13:47 of, of,
00:13:47 --> 00:13:51 what someone who's motivated to get more
00:13:52 --> 00:13:52 information,
00:13:53 --> 00:13:55 to be able to use it in clinical
00:13:55 --> 00:13:55 practice,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 what you can be able to accomplish.
00:13:58 --> 00:13:58 Yeah.
00:13:58 --> 00:13:58 All right.
00:13:58 --> 00:13:59 I said last question before,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 but I'm going to say last question again.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 What would you say to that clinician out
00:14:03 --> 00:14:03 there?
00:14:03 --> 00:14:04 They're not a researcher.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:05 I'm using air quote.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 They're not a researcher.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:08 But what would you say to them of
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 why it will help their career and,
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12 of course, big picture,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 help the profession of taking on either a
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 large or a small research project?
00:14:16 --> 00:14:17 Because we need those clinician
00:14:17 --> 00:14:17 researchers.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:18 You do.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 And I think what they can really add,
00:14:21 --> 00:14:22 one, you have the patients.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 So you have the subjects for any clinical
00:14:25 --> 00:14:25 trial.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 And you may have the question,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:29 and there's nothing wrong with
00:14:29 --> 00:14:35 collaborating with a research center or an
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 educational program of one sort or
00:14:38 --> 00:14:38 another,
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 whether that's at the entry level or
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 that's a graduate level program.
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 And you might be able to look at
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46 their research question that they're about
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 ready to embark on and say, you know,
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 I'd do that a little differently.
00:14:51 --> 00:14:52 I don't think that question is so
00:14:52 --> 00:14:53 relevant, you know,
00:14:53 --> 00:14:55 because from what I'm seeing,
00:14:55 --> 00:14:57 if we would tweak this or do this
00:14:57 --> 00:14:58 a little bit differently,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:01 that might be a much better question.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:01 You know,
00:15:02 --> 00:15:04 maybe it would yield you something that
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 clinicians need in order to be able to
00:15:06 --> 00:15:08 go in and do business on a,
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 on a day-to-day basis.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 And I think that's what you would have
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 the most to add, you know, and if,
00:15:13 --> 00:15:15 if you think, well, you know, in the,
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 statistical analysis or maybe what is the
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 most rigorous design or something like
00:15:22 --> 00:15:22 that.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:23 Yeah,
00:15:23 --> 00:15:25 there's plenty of room for collaboration
00:15:25 --> 00:15:27 with those things if you feel like that's
00:15:27 --> 00:15:28 not exactly your skill set.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 Yeah, and we need that, right?
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33 The researcher and the clinician,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 they just bring different things to the
00:15:36 --> 00:15:36 table.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 I imagine it's probably better than the
00:15:38 --> 00:15:39 sum of their parts.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:40 Oh, yes.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:42 Love it.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:42 All right.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:43 I promised you last question.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:44 I got it.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:45 Gail, appreciate some insight.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:46 We'll love to have you back on the
00:15:46 --> 00:15:46 show sometime soon.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:47 All right.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:48 Thank you very much.