In this episode, AAOMPT interviewer Nick Rainey is joined by Dr. Natalie Turrentine, orthopedic physical therapist and educator at Rosalind Franklin University, to unpack her CSM 2024 research on obstetric education in DPT programs.
They cover:
- Differences between pelvic health and obstetric terminology
- Why orthopedic PTs need training in pregnancy-related considerations
- Accessibility issues and referral trends
- CAPTE standards and what’s actually required in PT education
- How her program threads obstetric content across curriculum
- Opportunities to better prepare students without extending program length
00:00:05 --> 00:00:06 Hi, I'm Nick Rainey.
00:00:07 --> 00:00:08 I am part of AOMT's Pelvic
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 Health SIG and the SIG's
00:00:10 --> 00:00:11 former vice president.
00:00:12 --> 00:00:12 I'm also on the research
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 committee with AOMT and an
00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 interviewer on the AOMT
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 podcast through that committee.
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 Today, we have Natalie Turrentine,
00:00:20 --> 00:00:21 a board-certified
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23 orthopedic therapist at
00:00:23 --> 00:00:24 Rosalind Franklin
00:00:24 --> 00:00:25 University in North Chicago.
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 Welcome, Natalie.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:29 Hi, Nick.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:30 Thank you for having me today.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:30 I'm really looking forward
00:00:30 --> 00:00:31 to talking more.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:36 Well, we're excited to have you on here.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:39 As I was thinking about what
00:00:39 --> 00:00:42 to do for this podcast,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:43 I was doing some research
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 and I came across your poster at CSM,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:47 twenty twenty four.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:50 You and some students
00:00:50 --> 00:00:51 presented a poster titled
00:00:51 --> 00:00:52 Prevalence and Faculty
00:00:52 --> 00:00:55 Perception of Obstetrics
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 Education at the Entry
00:00:57 --> 00:00:58 Level Doctor of Physical
00:00:58 --> 00:00:59 Therapy Curriculum.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:01 When I came across this,
00:01:01 --> 00:01:03 I thought it pertinent for our listeners,
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04 as we've all been in
00:01:04 --> 00:01:05 entry-level programs.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:08 All of us care about the
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 direction our profession takes,
00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 and some of us are involved
00:01:13 --> 00:01:14 in entry-level programs currently.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:16 As this is an orthopedic and
00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 manual therapy organization,
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 normally the emphasis is in these areas.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:24 personally love the immense
00:01:24 --> 00:01:25 crossover between pelvic
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 health and orthopedics.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:28 Since I want more people to
00:01:28 --> 00:01:29 appreciate this,
00:01:29 --> 00:01:30 I thought this would be a
00:01:31 --> 00:01:32 pertinent poster and
00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 pertinent discussion for everybody.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:35 Thank you.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 Yeah, I'm definitely in agreement.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:40 So I wanted to start off
00:01:40 --> 00:01:42 with a bit of a broader question.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:44 In your research,
00:01:45 --> 00:01:47 you use the term obstetric
00:01:47 --> 00:01:49 rather than the common
00:01:49 --> 00:01:50 physical pelvic health.
00:01:50 --> 00:01:51 Can you elaborate on the
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 distinction you see between
00:01:53 --> 00:01:54 these terms and why you
00:01:54 --> 00:01:56 choose to use obstetric in
00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 this particular study?
00:01:58 --> 00:01:59 Sure, of course.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:01 So as you already mentioned,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:03 I come from a lens of I'm a
00:02:03 --> 00:02:04 board certified orthopedic
00:02:04 --> 00:02:05 physical therapist,
00:02:06 --> 00:02:07 and I'm also an academic.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 So when I started working on
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 my line of research,
00:02:11 --> 00:02:12 I really found that I
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 wanted to find a category
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 of interest based off of
00:02:17 --> 00:02:19 what I had already seen clinically.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:20 Um,
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 so the settings that I had worked in
00:02:22 --> 00:02:23 clinically were primarily
00:02:24 --> 00:02:25 outpatient orthopedic.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:27 And I started to notice a
00:02:27 --> 00:02:28 trend that if someone were
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 to call with any type of
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 pathology or any type of diagnosis,
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 and also happened to be pregnant,
00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 that they would
00:02:37 --> 00:02:38 automatically be referred
00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 to a pelvic health specialist,
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 which in many cases that
00:02:42 --> 00:02:44 may be best case scenario.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 But in other cases where
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 perhaps accessibility is limited,
00:02:51 --> 00:02:52 there may be a little bit
00:02:52 --> 00:02:53 of a disconnect between
00:02:54 --> 00:02:54 what I was seeing
00:02:54 --> 00:02:56 clinically and what I
00:02:56 --> 00:02:58 thought maybe could be happening.
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 So this is really the
00:03:00 --> 00:03:01 premise of why I wanted to
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 start learning more and
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 looking a little bit into
00:03:05 --> 00:03:06 the term obstetrics as
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 mentioned and our current
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 practice of obstetrics.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 So what this led to is one
00:03:13 --> 00:03:15 of my first research
00:03:15 --> 00:03:16 studies with a student
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 group was looking at the
00:03:19 --> 00:03:20 opinions of outpatient
00:03:20 --> 00:03:21 physical therapists.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:24 So we surveyed about a
00:03:24 --> 00:03:26 little over six hundred
00:03:26 --> 00:03:27 outpatient physical
00:03:27 --> 00:03:28 therapists to get their
00:03:28 --> 00:03:29 perspective on what was
00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 currently happening in the field.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:34 So we had a pretty good mix
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 of pelvic health specialists,
00:03:37 --> 00:03:38 orthopedic specialists,
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 and individuals who
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41 identified of not having
00:03:41 --> 00:03:42 any specialty at all.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:44 And we asked questions about
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 if someone were to have a diagnosis of,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:46 let's say,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:50 shoulder pain or back pain or knee pain,
00:03:51 --> 00:03:52 what would you think?
00:03:52 --> 00:03:53 What do you think would be
00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 the best person to see this
00:03:55 --> 00:03:56 particular individual?
00:03:57 --> 00:03:58 And overwhelmingly,
00:03:58 --> 00:04:01 with the exception of wrist, hand,
00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 and then diagnoses that pertain to the
00:04:05 --> 00:04:06 These physical therapists
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 said that a pelvic health
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 specialist would be most appropriate,
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 which again, that may be the case,
00:04:13 --> 00:04:14 but we do know that
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 accessibility can be limited.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:21 So we wanted to see what can
00:04:21 --> 00:04:24 we do to fill in a gap where needed.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:27 I feel like as a profession,
00:04:27 --> 00:04:30 the more generalized knowledge we have,
00:04:30 --> 00:04:31 the better off we can be.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:33 in our ability to not only
00:04:33 --> 00:04:35 diagnose and treat, but also refer.
00:04:36 --> 00:04:37 And I do feel like sometimes
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 there's a stigma or an
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 apprehension or maybe a
00:04:42 --> 00:04:43 fear of treating
00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 individuals who are
00:04:44 --> 00:04:45 pregnant and postpartum.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:47 And so my goal and my line
00:04:47 --> 00:04:49 of research and teaching
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51 and advocacy is to make
00:04:51 --> 00:04:52 sure that's not the case.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:52 You know,
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 if someone comes in and they are
00:04:54 --> 00:04:55 pregnant or they wanted to
00:04:56 --> 00:04:57 return to something postpartum,
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 that as a generalized physical therapist,
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 we either know what to do
00:05:01 --> 00:05:03 or we know when to refer.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:04 And so that's why I use the
00:05:04 --> 00:05:05 term obstetrics.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 That's great insight.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:11 I know when I first looked at the study,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:12 you know,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:13 I didn't think about it just
00:05:13 --> 00:05:16 from a pregnancy lens.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:16 You know,
00:05:17 --> 00:05:18 when I first looked at the title there,
00:05:19 --> 00:05:19 you know,
00:05:20 --> 00:05:21 what you're saying is that when
00:05:21 --> 00:05:22 people would come in and
00:05:22 --> 00:05:23 they were pregnant,
00:05:23 --> 00:05:24 automatically classed to
00:05:24 --> 00:05:25 the pelvic health therapist,
00:05:25 --> 00:05:26 no matter if it's,
00:05:28 --> 00:05:28 even if it's not
00:05:28 --> 00:05:30 lumbopelvic or specifically
00:05:30 --> 00:05:31 pregnancy related.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:32 Correct.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:32 Yeah.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:34 And that was my observation.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 And I think it could be at
00:05:36 --> 00:05:37 least a little bit
00:05:37 --> 00:05:39 generalized to more of
00:05:39 --> 00:05:42 what's going on in our field,
00:05:42 --> 00:05:43 just based on the research
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 that I've done thus far.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:46 You know,
00:05:46 --> 00:05:47 that also makes me think of like
00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 a pediatric specialist.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 You know,
00:05:50 --> 00:05:50 a lot of times we talk about
00:05:51 --> 00:05:52 pediatrics and not little adults,
00:05:53 --> 00:05:53 you know,
00:05:53 --> 00:05:54 but we're kind of treating the
00:05:54 --> 00:05:56 obstetric patient like that, you know,
00:05:56 --> 00:05:57 the pregnant patient that
00:05:57 --> 00:05:58 we're going to be saying to
00:05:58 --> 00:05:59 the pelvic health therapist
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 that it must be different, even if it's a
00:06:02 --> 00:06:03 even if it's a shoulder issue or whatnot.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:04 Whereas with pregnancy,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:06 I can feel like there's
00:06:06 --> 00:06:07 some specific
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 considerations for lumbopelvic hip,
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 but maybe not for shoulder, knee,
00:06:13 --> 00:06:14 you know, and obviously they didn't,
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 you know, with the respondents for hand,
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 wrist, ankle, foot, it sounds like.
00:06:19 --> 00:06:20 Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:23 And not to downplay by any means,
00:06:23 --> 00:06:24 there's definitely a time
00:06:24 --> 00:06:25 and a place where a pelvic
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 health specialist, they are most equipped,
00:06:28 --> 00:06:28 right?
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 But I do feel like if we
00:06:32 --> 00:06:35 we reduce some of the stigma and the fear,
00:06:35 --> 00:06:35 as we said,
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 that we could reach out to a
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 bigger population.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:41 Our research continues to
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 change and to advocate for
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 more activity and more
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 exercise and the ability to
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 return or keep up with certain athletics.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:51 And I feel like that's
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 something at entry level,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:54 we could at least have some
00:06:54 --> 00:06:56 exposure to so that we
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 could have education for our patients.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:01 That's great thoughts.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:02 So I guess a little more
00:07:03 --> 00:07:04 follow on the entry level.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:06 For those of our listeners
00:07:06 --> 00:07:07 who may not be as familiar,
00:07:08 --> 00:07:09 could you briefly explain
00:07:09 --> 00:07:10 the CAPT requirements
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 regarding pelvic health
00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 education in general,
00:07:13 --> 00:07:14 maybe obstetrics more
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 specifically in physical
00:07:16 --> 00:07:17 therapy programs?
00:07:17 --> 00:07:17 Sure.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:21 For CAPTI requirements,
00:07:21 --> 00:07:23 they are broken up into
00:07:23 --> 00:07:24 these things called elements.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 So there are a list of
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 different elements that universities,
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 institutions need to show
00:07:31 --> 00:07:32 evidence that they're doing.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:34 So for example,
00:07:34 --> 00:07:35 one of the elements that we
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 have in academics is an
00:07:38 --> 00:07:39 element that makes sure
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 that we address the anatomy, physiology,
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 pathology throughout the lifespan,
00:07:45 --> 00:07:47 including different categories.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:50 So including genital, reproductive,
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 gastrointestinal, and the list goes on.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:54 Once we,
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 evaluate that element,
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 then we have to show what
00:07:59 --> 00:08:01 objectives in teaching and
00:08:01 --> 00:08:02 how we really teach this information.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 So I use that as an example
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 because usually these elements,
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 they give you some leeway
00:08:09 --> 00:08:11 in how you're doing them in
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 that each institution can be addressing,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:14 for example,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 this one particular element
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 cited a lot of different ways, right?
00:08:19 --> 00:08:21 So not only do we have these
00:08:21 --> 00:08:22 CAPD standards that we have
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 to show evidence of,
00:08:24 --> 00:08:25 but we also have these other
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 influencing factors within academics.
00:08:28 --> 00:08:30 So we use the research
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 coming out of the APTA,
00:08:32 --> 00:08:33 we use the guide to
00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 physical therapy practice,
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 we use ACAPT information,
00:08:38 --> 00:08:39 and then also the MPTE.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:42 The role that I'm in here at
00:08:42 --> 00:08:43 the university is
00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 is helping in student
00:08:45 --> 00:08:47 support for the board exams.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 So we also have to have an
00:08:50 --> 00:08:51 awareness of what is and is
00:08:52 --> 00:08:53 not being tested.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 So there is a category under the MPT,
00:08:56 --> 00:08:57 the FSPPT,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 that does talk about pelvic health.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 So we do have these certain
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 standards that we have to meet,
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 but outside of that,
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 there is some ambiguity as to
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 how much and in what detail
00:09:12 --> 00:09:13 this information has to be
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 included in our curriculum.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:20 The APTA has a guideline for curriculum.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 That guideline is a recommendation.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 It is not something that is
00:09:26 --> 00:09:27 published by CAPTI.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:29 So it is a really good
00:09:29 --> 00:09:30 resource for anyone in
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 academics who are looking
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 for a guideline.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 But the CAPTI recommendation
00:09:37 --> 00:09:38 in itself is a little bit broad.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:40 And I think that that's
00:09:40 --> 00:09:41 important to bring up in
00:09:41 --> 00:09:43 some of the next questions too.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:48 Well, that was a very detailed answer.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:49 You were the right person to
00:09:49 --> 00:09:50 ask that question too.
00:09:50 --> 00:09:51 Thank you.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:52 You know,
00:09:52 --> 00:09:53 we just went through our reaccreditation,
00:09:54 --> 00:09:55 so I have learned more
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 about that than I ever
00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 would have known otherwise.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 Very good.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:01 Good timing then.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 As you said, it could be vague,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:07 a little bit broad,
00:10:07 --> 00:10:08 what the requirements are.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:10 With your detailed knowledge
00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 of that and your interest there,
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 I'm assuming that you've
00:10:14 --> 00:10:15 worked to do this at
00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 Rosalind Franklin University.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:18 Could you share some
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 specific ways that you've
00:10:20 --> 00:10:21 successfully integrated
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 pelvic health and obstetric
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 education into your curriculum there?
00:10:26 --> 00:10:27 Yeah, of course.
00:10:27 --> 00:10:27 You know,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:28 I'm really proud of the work
00:10:28 --> 00:10:29 that's been done here,
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 and it's something that we
00:10:31 --> 00:10:32 put some thought into.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:35 So what we try to do is to
00:10:35 --> 00:10:36 thread our content
00:10:36 --> 00:10:37 throughout the curriculum.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:39 So what we mean by that is
00:10:39 --> 00:10:40 within the first quarter,
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 We introduce the students to
00:10:44 --> 00:10:45 our diverse faculty.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:47 We have individuals who are
00:10:47 --> 00:10:48 specialized in orthopedics,
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 but also pelvic health and
00:10:50 --> 00:10:51 everything in between.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:53 So we give an introduction
00:10:53 --> 00:10:54 as to what exists,
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 how we got there and what
00:10:57 --> 00:10:58 resources there are for the students,
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 even in starting in their
00:11:01 --> 00:11:02 academic career.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 So really to kind of give a
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 gauge as to these are all
00:11:07 --> 00:11:08 of the things that you'll
00:11:08 --> 00:11:10 be able to do after your entry level.
00:11:11 --> 00:11:12 um, academics.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:14 Then later in the curriculum,
00:11:14 --> 00:11:16 we get a little bit more specific.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 So we incorporate some of
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 the obstetric considerations.
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 Um, you know, I, I do,
00:11:23 --> 00:11:24 I have a class session
00:11:24 --> 00:11:26 where we talk about just
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 broad understanding of all
00:11:28 --> 00:11:29 the physiological changes
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 that occur and how we have
00:11:31 --> 00:11:33 to adapt our examination.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:34 If for example,
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 we were seeing someone for
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 their ankle and they were
00:11:38 --> 00:11:39 in their third trimester.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:41 So starting to problem solve,
00:11:42 --> 00:11:43 how will the person feel
00:11:43 --> 00:11:44 most comfortable and safe
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 in our evaluation technique?
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 Another thing that I'm proud
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 of is that we've had the
00:11:52 --> 00:11:54 ability to bring some of
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 the continuing ed courses to our campus.
00:11:57 --> 00:11:58 And I really think that this
00:11:58 --> 00:11:59 has helped with
00:11:59 --> 00:12:00 accessibility for our
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 students and community with
00:12:02 --> 00:12:03 some of the pelvic health
00:12:04 --> 00:12:06 and obstetric coursework that exists.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:09 So I think it's going.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:12 Yeah.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:12 Yeah.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:13 I think that, I mean,
00:12:13 --> 00:12:14 if an orthopedic therapist
00:12:14 --> 00:12:15 is seeing somebody for
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 their ankle to not have any idea how to,
00:12:18 --> 00:12:19 you know,
00:12:19 --> 00:12:20 the considerations for a pregnant patient,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 I think it's very important there.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:23 So I think that's great.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:24 You're able to incorporate
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 that and that's maybe unique, you know,
00:12:27 --> 00:12:28 somewhat to your program.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:29 I can't imagine that's
00:12:30 --> 00:12:32 ubiquitous across programs there.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:33 So that's excellent.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:33 Yeah.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:33 Thank you.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:35 I appreciate it.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:35 We're trying.
00:12:36 --> 00:12:39 And with the continuing education courses,
00:12:39 --> 00:12:40 are those,
00:12:40 --> 00:12:41 do clinicians from around the
00:12:41 --> 00:12:42 community come to those?
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 Is it just focused on your
00:12:44 --> 00:12:45 students or how do those work?
00:12:46 --> 00:12:46 No.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 So we've hosted the APTA
00:12:49 --> 00:12:50 sanctioned courses.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 So pelvic health one,
00:12:52 --> 00:12:53 and there's an obstetric
00:12:53 --> 00:12:56 certificate where there's a lab portion.
00:12:56 --> 00:12:58 So we've hosted the labs on
00:12:58 --> 00:13:00 campus and they're open to anyone.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:02 And, you know,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 the hope is that in bringing
00:13:04 --> 00:13:05 them locally,
00:13:05 --> 00:13:07 that we could also have some
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 of our students enroll, which they have,
00:13:09 --> 00:13:10 which is wonderful.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 Some of our new grads have enrolled,
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 but then also anyone, I'm in the Midwest,
00:13:16 --> 00:13:17 so we've had a lot of
00:13:17 --> 00:13:18 people come from the Midwest,
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 but really from anywhere,
00:13:20 --> 00:13:21 it's open to anyone.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:24 I think that's fabulous.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:26 As a clinician,
00:13:26 --> 00:13:27 one of our recent grads
00:13:27 --> 00:13:28 that we brought on,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:30 she'd already had some
00:13:30 --> 00:13:31 specific pelvic health
00:13:31 --> 00:13:31 training she'd done in an
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 extra coursework before, you know,
00:13:34 --> 00:13:35 before graduating.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:36 And that really sets her off for the,
00:13:36 --> 00:13:37 you know, the ground running.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:38 Oh, absolutely.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 When she started practice.
00:13:40 --> 00:13:41 So that's outstanding.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 Absolutely.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:43 Thank you.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 I also really liked how you
00:13:46 --> 00:13:47 talked about the faculty
00:13:47 --> 00:13:48 talk about how they got to
00:13:48 --> 00:13:48 where they're at.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:51 I think that's really
00:13:51 --> 00:13:52 important for students to have a vision.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 We all know that models are
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 extremely important in life.
00:13:57 --> 00:13:58 And so they could see where
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 other faculty have been and
00:14:00 --> 00:14:01 you get that early on,
00:14:01 --> 00:14:02 it sounds like in your program.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:04 I think that's very excellent.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:05 So kudos to you on that as well.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:07 Yeah, thank you very much.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 We've all gotten through
00:14:09 --> 00:14:10 different ways and
00:14:10 --> 00:14:11 different pathways to get
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12 to where we are now.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 So I think everyone on our
00:14:14 --> 00:14:15 faculty just likes sharing
00:14:15 --> 00:14:16 that and showing that
00:14:16 --> 00:14:17 there's not always a direct path,
00:14:18 --> 00:14:18 but there's
00:14:19 --> 00:14:20 different options depending
00:14:20 --> 00:14:21 on what piques your interest.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 So we want to make sure that we expose,
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25 expose our students to that.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29 So as it going on with
00:14:30 --> 00:14:31 entry-level education then,
00:14:33 --> 00:14:33 so you've been able to
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35 really focus on that at
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 Rosalind Franklin University.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:37 What do you see as the
00:14:37 --> 00:14:38 primary challenges that
00:14:39 --> 00:14:40 other programs may face in
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 implementing robust public
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 health education?
00:14:44 --> 00:14:45 And maybe any ideas on how
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 these challenges can be addressed?
00:14:48 --> 00:14:48 Sure.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:52 Um, undoubtedly I would say time.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:53 Um, you know,
00:14:53 --> 00:14:54 this is a question that we
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 specifically asked in our
00:14:56 --> 00:14:57 survey and overwhelmingly
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 that's what the feedback was, was,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:00 was time in the curriculum.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:04 Um, I could say firsthand, you know,
00:15:04 --> 00:15:05 I'm a part of the curriculum committee.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:06 As I mentioned,
00:15:07 --> 00:15:07 we had just gone through
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 reaccreditation and we have
00:15:10 --> 00:15:11 a lot of good stuff, you know,
00:15:11 --> 00:15:12 within our field,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 we are a pretty generalized
00:15:14 --> 00:15:15 profession in that when
00:15:15 --> 00:15:17 those students take the board exams,
00:15:17 --> 00:15:18 They have a lot of
00:15:18 --> 00:15:19 information about a lot of
00:15:20 --> 00:15:20 interesting things.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:22 So because of that,
00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 time is always of an
00:15:24 --> 00:15:26 essence and you need time
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 in order to either add
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 content or make sure that
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 you're doing things to the
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33 standard in education that
00:15:33 --> 00:15:34 you want to achieve.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:38 So that being said,
00:15:39 --> 00:15:40 I've put some thought into
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 how we can do this all, right?
00:15:44 --> 00:15:45 How we can still have
00:15:45 --> 00:15:46 generalized information
00:15:47 --> 00:15:48 without adding onto time.
00:15:49 --> 00:15:50 And I guess my thought is,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 and this just may be my perspective,
00:15:53 --> 00:15:55 but I feel like we already
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 do a lot of things in which
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 this content could be incorporated.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:01 So, you know, a couple of examples.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 So we start off,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:04 at least in our curriculum,
00:16:04 --> 00:16:05 we have some generalized sciences,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 we have anatomy and physiology.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:09 And from my perspective,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 I feel like if we had a
00:16:12 --> 00:16:14 conversation about, for example,
00:16:14 --> 00:16:15 the physiologic changes that occur,
00:16:16 --> 00:16:17 pregnancy you know we don't
00:16:17 --> 00:16:18 have to go into too much
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 depth but at least have a
00:16:20 --> 00:16:21 touch point early in the
00:16:21 --> 00:16:23 curriculum then we could
00:16:23 --> 00:16:24 build on that later in our
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 clinical sciences we could
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 maybe supplement some of
00:16:28 --> 00:16:29 the cases that we discuss
00:16:30 --> 00:16:32 and use a case in which
00:16:32 --> 00:16:33 someone's in their second
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35 trimester they're a one
00:16:35 --> 00:16:37 month um after they're
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 having a baby and they want
00:16:39 --> 00:16:40 to get back into running
00:16:41 --> 00:16:42 or one month and they have a
00:16:42 --> 00:16:43 certain occupation.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:44 You know,
00:16:44 --> 00:16:45 we could use this case
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46 information in things that
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48 we already do in order for
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 us to have repetition and
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 improve the comfort level
00:16:53 --> 00:16:54 of our students in working
00:16:54 --> 00:16:55 with these individuals.
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59 You know, as I think about,
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01 I'm a clinical instructor
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 and for most months out of the year,
00:17:04 --> 00:17:05 we have students here at
00:17:05 --> 00:17:09 this clinic and I'm continually
00:17:10 --> 00:17:11 I don't know about surprised,
00:17:11 --> 00:17:12 but how much that, you know,
00:17:12 --> 00:17:13 things they do remember
00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 from their entry level education,
00:17:15 --> 00:17:16 you know, I'm just like,
00:17:16 --> 00:17:17 there was this one slide, you know,
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19 two or three semesters ago, you know,
00:17:19 --> 00:17:19 there's one little
00:17:19 --> 00:17:21 discussion that they log away.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:22 And then when it becomes pertinent,
00:17:22 --> 00:17:23 they can bring it out.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:24 And so, you know,
00:17:24 --> 00:17:25 I think that approach is
00:17:25 --> 00:17:26 you're discussing,
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 Even just being here in our clinic,
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 if our students have some of those,
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 a slide here, a conversation there,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:35 it would benefit them at
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 those moments when it's needed.
00:17:38 --> 00:17:39 It may not be every day for
00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 a lot of clinicians, but when it's needed,
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 that's how a lot of our education is,
00:17:42 --> 00:17:43 that we don't use it.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 Until the one day that it's needed.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:46 Right.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:47 The one day where it's really important.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:48 Right.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:49 And at least you could look
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 back at a discussion that you had.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:52 Right.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:53 That otherwise maybe you wouldn't.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:54 And so stuff like that,
00:17:55 --> 00:17:56 it does take some time,
00:17:56 --> 00:17:57 but we're already doing a
00:17:57 --> 00:17:58 lot of things where this
00:17:58 --> 00:18:00 information could be incorporated.
00:18:00 --> 00:18:01 And I think it would be for
00:18:01 --> 00:18:02 the better good for those
00:18:02 --> 00:18:03 couple of people that that
00:18:03 --> 00:18:04 really need it.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 Do you have any examples to
00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 illustrate the importance of this topic?
00:18:12 --> 00:18:13 Maybe where there was a lack
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15 of obstetric or pelvic
00:18:15 --> 00:18:16 health education and it
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 negatively impacted patient care?
00:18:19 --> 00:18:20 Sure.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:23 So I'm sure there are some
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24 specific examples,
00:18:25 --> 00:18:26 but I think something that
00:18:26 --> 00:18:28 really sticks out to me is
00:18:29 --> 00:18:30 some of the responses that
00:18:30 --> 00:18:31 we got in our research.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:32 So
00:18:33 --> 00:18:33 You know,
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 an example in one of the studies
00:18:36 --> 00:18:37 that I had talked about,
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 we had over six hundred
00:18:39 --> 00:18:40 physical therapists respond.
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 So it's a pretty good amount.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 And in that research study,
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 about eighty seven percent of them.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 So that's five hundred thirty ish.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 Physical therapists reported that patients,
00:18:50 --> 00:18:51 they did not receive enough
00:18:51 --> 00:18:52 information about their
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 physical well-being during
00:18:54 --> 00:18:55 their pregnancy.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 And that number went up when
00:18:58 --> 00:18:59 we asked about patient
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01 education after their pregnancy.
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 It was about ninety six percent of
00:19:03 --> 00:19:04 our physical therapists,
00:19:04 --> 00:19:04 so people within our
00:19:04 --> 00:19:06 profession said that
00:19:06 --> 00:19:07 individuals did not receive
00:19:07 --> 00:19:08 enough education.
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 And so those numbers,
00:19:11 --> 00:19:12 those stand out to me in
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 that there's something that we could do,
00:19:16 --> 00:19:17 right?
00:19:17 --> 00:19:19 If a big chunk of the PTs
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21 that were at least answered
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 the survey are saying that
00:19:23 --> 00:19:24 they don't think that
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 patients are getting the
00:19:26 --> 00:19:26 education that they need.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 We know that information is,
00:19:31 --> 00:19:33 really crucial for wellness
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 and well-being and even
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 seeking out medical attention.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 So I feel like having the
00:19:42 --> 00:19:43 knowledge that there is
00:19:43 --> 00:19:45 something missing is enough
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 for me to say we should do better.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:50 Right.
00:19:50 --> 00:19:51 And I think that that that
00:19:52 --> 00:19:56 was a primary base for why I
00:19:56 --> 00:19:57 wanted to start looking at
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59 what is happening even
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 nationally at the entry
00:20:01 --> 00:20:02 level and why I wanted to
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04 start having this
00:20:04 --> 00:20:07 conversation here and just
00:20:07 --> 00:20:08 trying to advocate for
00:20:09 --> 00:20:11 change or trying to
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 advocate for the ability to
00:20:14 --> 00:20:14 incorporate this
00:20:14 --> 00:20:16 information so that we can
00:20:16 --> 00:20:17 better serve our patients.
00:20:17 --> 00:20:22 Well, I think that was a
00:20:22 --> 00:20:23 That was a great answer as well.
00:20:24 --> 00:20:25 So, you know, outside,
00:20:25 --> 00:20:26 it's difficult to have
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28 maybe a specific example where, you know,
00:20:28 --> 00:20:29 because we're getting about
00:20:29 --> 00:20:31 to provide some level of care,
00:20:31 --> 00:20:32 but if the patient and the
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 provider side both feel
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 that there's information lacking,
00:20:37 --> 00:20:37 you know,
00:20:37 --> 00:20:38 that means the patient is wanting it.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:39 The provider,
00:20:39 --> 00:20:40 the physical therapist knows
00:20:40 --> 00:20:41 that they would like to be
00:20:41 --> 00:20:42 able to provide more,
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45 but they don't have it themselves.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:46 So that's a great
00:20:47 --> 00:20:48 a great answer on how,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 if we can have a little bit
00:20:50 --> 00:20:51 more to give them,
00:20:51 --> 00:20:52 then both people are gonna be,
00:20:53 --> 00:20:54 both sides are gonna be
00:20:54 --> 00:20:54 appreciative there.
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 Yeah, that's the hope.
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 Any other thoughts that you have,
00:21:02 --> 00:21:02 anything you'd like to
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 share with our audience
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 before we finish today?
00:21:07 --> 00:21:08 That's a loaded question.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:12 No, I think- The floor is yours.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:15 No, you know,
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 I'm proud of what we've achieved so far.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 I'm proud of the changes
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 that we've made at our institution.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 And I just hope that, you know,
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 we continue to see progress.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:27 I think that we will.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:28 I'm optimistic.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:29 You know,
00:21:29 --> 00:21:30 we have certificates where they
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 never existed before.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:33 I'm continuously reading of
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 new research and protocols
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 where they never were there before.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:38 But I think that as long as
00:21:38 --> 00:21:39 we continue conversations
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41 like this one we're having today,
00:21:41 --> 00:21:42 that we're on a good trajectory.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:44 There's just more work to do.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:47 Cool.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:48 Well, thank you very much, Natalie.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 I appreciate you coming on today.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51 Yeah, thank you.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:52 It's been nice talking with you.
00:21:52 --> 00:21:53 I appreciate it.