Revolutionizing PT Education & Differential Diagnosis with John Heick

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;14 Unknown John, hike! On the, on the podcast here at, at amped in, in Orlando. 00;00;05;14 - 00;00;13;01 Unknown We were just talking and someone said, hey, were you doing the whole video podcast thing? In Reno. I was like, oh, Reno. Reno. I haven't been to Reno before. 00;00;13;01 - 00;00;14;16 Unknown Oh, there you go. So, excited 00;00;14;16 - 00;00;17;14 Unknown about that? You've been teaching, 00;00;17;14 - 00;00;24;05 Unknown musculoskeletal health differential diagnosis for years? Yes. And I think you've been doing it long enough that 00;00;24;05 - 00;00;28;03 Unknown you get to see the macro changes over time. 00;00;28;06 - 00;00;41;22 Unknown How have those two different areas of our profession evolved since when you first started teaching that any, like big changes or things that you've noticed, because now you get to sort of, you're not you're not looking micro, you're looking very, very macro. 00;00;41;22 - 00;00;46;29 Unknown Yeah. I you know, I've gotten into the idea of using these things, graphic causal models. 00;00;46;29 - 00;00;58;02 Unknown And so it fits in really nicely with AI. So if you can imagine someone presents with like Patel for moral pain syndrome. Well, we're figuring that out by what their signs and their symptoms 00;00;58;02 - 00;00;59;17 Unknown are. Right. And so I have 00;00;59;17 - 00;01;10;07 Unknown students create models. The big picture, to visually show what's going on with that person. So, you know, potentially looking at, you know, what their different signs and symptoms are. 00;01;10;09 - 00;01;14;04 Unknown And then you run that through AI to be able to figure out, well, how much does that matter. 00;01;14;04 - 00;01;15;19 Unknown Right. Right right right. So 00;01;15;19 - 00;01;26;09 Unknown that is one of the big things I've seen sort of change and change how I teach. But then also I think that's where we're going with AI is is being able to figure out these things. 00;01;26;11 - 00;01;54;03 Unknown You know, for example, someone has heart failure. And I know there were a different conference than a heart failure type of thing. Yeah, but fits in with differential diagnosis that has an S3 and a daemon there. Lower extremities is 87% more likely to have heart failure. Stage two. So based off of those signs and symptoms, are we going to be able, with AI to be able to get to that point to where I look at these 2 or 3 things as opposed to a big cluster, 00;01;54;03 - 00;01;54;18 Unknown right. 00;01;54;20 - 00;01;55;03 Unknown And be able 00;01;55;03 - 00;01;56;17 Unknown to say, I think they have this. 00;01;56;17 - 00;01;58;02 Unknown Wow. So that's 00;01;58;02 - 00;02;03;04 Unknown kind of I've seen that evolution sort of shifting. Now I think AI is going to influence that. 00;02;03;04 - 00;02;07;19 Unknown Yeah. I mean, again, I still think that, you know, because again, this audio is going to live forever. So 00;02;07;19 - 00;02;09;04 Unknown someone's going to listen to this 00;02;09;04 - 00;02;10;04 Unknown 30 years from now and go, 00;02;10;04 - 00;02;11;19 Unknown yeah, they were just like a 00;02;11;19 - 00;02;13;14 Unknown kitten playing with a ball of yarn with this AI. 00;02;13;15 - 00;02;24;19 Unknown They didn't know what they had. And I think you're right. Future person who's listening to this but also like it's it's not. It's simple, but not easy to wrap your head around what's possible. Do you want an example of what I did? 00;02;24;19 - 00;02;26;04 Unknown Yes. And I've showed this off 00;02;26;04 - 00;02;29;27 Unknown like 30 times. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do a quick short form video eventually of this. 00;02;29;27 - 00;02;31;18 Unknown But I'll just tell you this in long form. 00;02;31;18 - 00;02;33;03 Unknown All right. I was walking through the poster 00;02;33;03 - 00;02;35;18 Unknown presentation session here at AMD yesterday, 00;02;35;18 - 00;02;37;03 Unknown snapped a picture 00;02;37;03 - 00;02;49;28 Unknown of Adrian Lo's, poster was on pain. Okay. I then gave ChatGPT a very simple prompt. I said, help me understand this poster and what its key takeaway is trying to do, 00;02;49;28 - 00;02;53;05 Unknown and do it in the format, in the style of Eminem. 00;02;53;07 - 00;02;53;27 Unknown So it 00;02;53;27 - 00;02;55;12 Unknown in about 25 00;02;55;12 - 00;03;12;26 Unknown seconds, wrote a rap in the style of Eminem, explaining it to me. But hold on now. I think you know the researchers out there going. Hold on a second, that's a cute trick. But then I then turned to Adrian Lo and I said, you're the author of that poster. Is this rap accurate? And the only thing he said was that he dropped an expletive. 00;03;12;26 - 00;03;31;13 Unknown And then he said, I don't know if we're needed much anymore because according to Adrian, yes, that actually summarized what I was trying to communicate with 300 words. It did it in four sentences, but the four sentences rhymed and they if we threw some music to them, they would have flowed. So 00;03;31;13 - 00;03;32;28 Unknown oh my God, you can. 00;03;32;28 - 00;03;39;22 Unknown So I think the lay up in what you're talking about is, dude, I can do my homework in five minutes and that's the way to cheat, right? 00;03;39;23 - 00;03;43;12 Unknown And we're going to find the cheat way. We were going to use the power tool, The cheat first. 00;03;43;12 - 00;03;44;27 Unknown But you're demonstrating. 00;03;44;27 - 00;04;00;29 Unknown But what if we could use it to make you to make it easier, fun, more visual to visualize a thing that before wasn't visual? You can bend and twist. So instead of looking at an an x, y, we have to start looking at it like the z axis as well, where we can do with this, 00;04;00;29 - 00;04;01;08 Unknown right. 00;04;01;09 - 00;04;09;28 Unknown Organic chemistry system. Trans yeah. Yeah. Switches orientation. Yeah. So that was just one. And again like you know and I 00;04;09;28 - 00;04;21;07 Unknown was turned to my videographer, I said, hey drew, if we walked through this poster presentation and I don't know there was 50 or something in those, if I did one in the style of Eminem and one in Mr. Rogers and one in Mickey Mouse. 00;04;21;11 - 00;04;27;13 Unknown Like, we could make we could have fun with this. You could. It's not an F, or we could. You could easily do 00;04;27;13 - 00;04;28;28 Unknown all 50 of those posters 00;04;28;28 - 00;04;45;12 Unknown done in reels and shorts, and they could get out of this building. That's that's science. Communication. That's knowledge translation. And again, the person listening to this in 30 years is like, yeah, obviously, because then someone did this and this and it was so obvious because hindsight's 2020, 00;04;45;12 - 00;04;45;27 Unknown right? 00;04;45;29 - 00;04;46;27 Unknown What are some things 00;04;46;27 - 00;04;54;05 Unknown what are some things about either I or anything else that makes you excited about in the future of of education, where you said, 00;04;54;05 - 00;05;04;05 Unknown you know, we just did two presentations and, I think, you know, educating, not only the masses, but then also, the educators on 00;05;04;05 - 00;05;05;20 Unknown on educate 00;05;05;20 - 00;05;06;27 Unknown is, is is ideal. 00;05;06;27 - 00;05;11;20 Unknown And that's why I think we're, you know, the CBA model, if you've been sort of paying attention. 00;05;11;20 - 00;05;14;20 Unknown Competency is a competency based. Yeah. Explain that real quick. I 00;05;14;20 - 00;05;16;04 Unknown you explain it to me. I'm pretty sure I know it, but 00;05;16;04 - 00;05;17;19 Unknown let's just make sure I don't get left behind. 00;05;17;19 - 00;05;33;00 Unknown You know, our program is trying to move towards competency based, but the idea is to try and and look at the at the very end product and be able to condense what it is that they really need to know and, and focus on that. 00;05;33;00 - 00;05;51;03 Unknown And then make that competency based. So, we have specific, objectives. We'll use the word objectives as close or what they're called. And so those objectives then are the big picture. So for example, appraise the literature. Well the phrase the literature, you have to be able to take the steps 00;05;51;03 - 00;05;52;18 Unknown to get these six things right. 00;05;52;24 - 00;06;07;20 Unknown Okay. To get up to the top. And so that's the end goal. And so if you can decide on what your end goals are, make those your main objectives. That's competency based. Are they reaching those steps. And I have to have ways to assess them to get to this. 00;06;07;20 - 00;06;13;26 Unknown And and one of the differences in competency based versus what we're using, what are we using now if that's competency based learning. 00;06;13;26 - 00;06;17;05 Unknown What are we doing now. What I believe in have a name for that. That's just what we've always done. 00;06;17;05 - 00;06;21;05 Unknown I think it's yeah I guess different programs would do it differently. But they're 00;06;21;05 - 00;06;24;19 Unknown oh, problem based learning. Yeah. Right. Got it. That's what we use where I went to school. So all 00;06;24;19 - 00;06;26;04 Unknown right so so put in 00;06;26;04 - 00;06;26;25 Unknown problem based learning. 00;06;26;25 - 00;06;28;21 Unknown If I failed the test 00;06;28;21 - 00;06;46;28 Unknown I might have to get off the train. Or maybe we get another shot at it. But in competency based learning, your idea is like maybe the person who doesn't learn it the fastest isn't broken. Maybe they just didn't learn it the right way or learn it fastest. Let's keep education. Isn't the point to eventually gain competency, not just your first shot at that. 00;06;47;01 - 00;07;04;14 Unknown It fits in very nicely with our talks that we just did. And that's the idea of you're giving them multiple chances to learn the content. You're figuring out what areas they're weak in the deficiencies and that they can improve on. So they're that's one of the things in terms of trying to take those steps up to that higher level objective. 00;07;04;20 - 00;07;10;29 Unknown Yeah. And this is already in use in other, fields, right. In medical education. Right. They use competency based 00;07;10;29 - 00;07;11;29 Unknown learning physicians 00;07;11;29 - 00;07;12;29 Unknown and they've been doing this 00;07;12;29 - 00;07;14;14 Unknown for a while. So it's blowing. It's 00;07;14;14 - 00;07;17;14 Unknown been blowing our minds. But at the same time, the people like other 00;07;17;14 - 00;07;18;29 Unknown people are like doing this. The 00;07;18;29 - 00;07;19;29 Unknown thing would be doing it for 00;07;19;29 - 00;07;21;14 Unknown us. Yeah. 00;07;22;29 - 00;07;25;29 Unknown In one of your presentations, you highlighted the principles of teaching and learning. 00;07;25;29 - 00;07;27;14 Unknown Yeah. What are the key strategies 00;07;27;14 - 00;07;29;21 Unknown that you use to engage 00;07;29;21 - 00;07;41;04 Unknown entry level students? These these kids today? Because the generations change. And that's the funny thing is, you grow up listening to adults say, these kids today, and you're like, what do you mean? 00;07;41;09 - 00;07;59;02 Unknown But this is this is how it's always been. But if you've done things long enough, you get to see. All right. There's I'm looking back and hindsight's 2020. Yeah. So what are some of the key strategies you would use to engage both either entry level students, residents, fellows. They're learning similar materials, but they're at different stages. 00;07;59;07 - 00;08;07;23 Unknown Exactly. Well said. I think you I said I think one of the biggest things is that, you know, not only students but society misunderstands learning. 00;08;07;23 - 00;08;09;08 Unknown Right? Okay. We think 00;08;09;08 - 00;08;11;08 Unknown that if we read something over and over and over 00;08;11;08 - 00;08;12;23 Unknown again, it's going to stick, right? 00;08;12;23 - 00;08;25;26 Unknown We know it. And that's not the right approach. For example, one of the things we talk about is, you know, if we're looking at a slide and I want to make an emphasis on a point, I used to and you brought this up, I used to bold it. 00;08;26;01 - 00;08;26;23 Unknown Right. Didn't read. 00;08;26;23 - 00;08;28;08 Unknown Right. Well 00;08;28;08 - 00;08;41;07 Unknown all I'm doing is working on performance. I'm not working on learning, okay. This is a permanent change. So to get that permanent change, I have to make it harder for students. So that's absolutely something that's changed for me and my teaching. 00;08;41;07 - 00;08;42;22 Unknown Yeah I provided them 00;08;42;22 - 00;08;47;21 Unknown everything before and I and that doesn't really work in terms of learning and making it stick. 00;08;47;22 - 00;08;52;22 Unknown Right. I've got to I've got to do a little I've got to insert a little brain energy and energy to, to, to do 00;08;52;22 - 00;08;54;07 Unknown it. And that's frustrating for the learner. 00;08;54;07 - 00;08;55;08 Unknown Yeah. 00;08;55;08 - 00;09;12;05 Unknown Especially if that's the first time they're hitting that that style. Right. I, I forget who I was talking to to, to this about, but I said it's almost a, a disservice because in American modern education you have first grade then come second grade, then fourth grade and were tested along the way. 00;09;12;05 - 00;09;14;17 Unknown And the goal is get the right answer, 00;09;14;17 - 00;09;16;02 Unknown right. And then who does the best 00;09;16;02 - 00;09;40;23 Unknown performance? Who gets the best score on the SAT? You know, who gets into the school and the goal was right. And then you come to school and we're supposed to be okay with ambiguity. And I'm like, I'm going to defend these 22 year old students and say, this might be the first time they've ever been forced to be okay with ambiguity being taught by people who've been around and been like, well, I'm okay with ambiguity, but this is the first time because, I mean, in chemistry. 00;09;40;23 - 00;09;48;01 Unknown In sophomore year in high school, I was not allowed. It was not being tested on ambiguous being tested. What is the answer to this equation? 00;09;48;01 - 00;09;49;16 Unknown This is the correct answer. Yeah. 00;09;49;16 - 00;09;58;09 Unknown And now it's ambiguity. So like I just want you know, I was like giving them a little bit of grace or have some grace with them is this is a this is a different way to learn. 00;09;58;15 - 00;10;01;07 Unknown And it's vastly different than they've been used to. 00;10;01;07 - 00;10;02;22 Unknown Right. And that's the hard part. Right. 00;10;02;22 - 00;10;03;22 Unknown Huge. 00;10;03;22 - 00;10;05;07 Unknown Programed them. Huge. 00;10;05;07 - 00;10;11;22 Unknown Right. Education system. Right. Marching line. Marching line. And now interpretive dance. It's like wait a minute. Those are two different things. 00;10;11;22 - 00;10;14;07 Unknown Yes, absolutely. 00;10;14;07 - 00;10;25;24 Unknown So how do you how do you usher someone over that threshold? You know, this person who has been good, a good student because they got the right answer most of the time, or and they were able to outperform their peers. 00;10;25;26 - 00;10;38;21 Unknown And now the idea is how do you how are you not only understanding that's part of you're not going to have always the right answer. Most of the time you're going to get close. And how are you okay with that? Like how do you where do you get people? How do you get humans okay with that? 00;10;38;21 - 00;10;45;21 Unknown Yeah, I think the biggest thing you probably learned in graduate school more about learning than you did prior to that 00;10;45;21 - 00;10;47;11 Unknown and myself, probably, to be honest with you. 00;10;47;11 - 00;10;47;21 Unknown Yeah, 00;10;47;21 - 00;10;54;20 Unknown absolutely. And so I think you have to teach the student, the learner resident fellow, to make sure they understand learning. 00;10;54;20 - 00;10;56;05 Unknown Yeah. I think you have to do that 00;10;56;05 - 00;11;09;05 Unknown throughout the pathway. So first year, second year, even between semesters and say this is about learning. This is why those objectives matter. This is where we're going. And you have to show them examples of this is a lower level objective. 00;11;09;10 - 00;11;16;22 Unknown And this is a type of question that I would ask. As you go through the program, it's going to be a higher level question. And here's an example of that. 00;11;16;22 - 00;11;24;21 Unknown Yeah. And you have to make them aware that there's a stepwise progression right to the top. Right. Wow. There was yeah. There was also something 00;11;24;21 - 00;11;28;24 Unknown that was presented by a person on faculty where I went to school. 00;11;28;26 - 00;11;38;06 Unknown Meghan Moran, she brought in, are you from the The Strength finders strength finder? It's one of the it's a it's an idea. It's from the company Gallup. They do a lot of 00;11;38;06 - 00;11;39;21 Unknown polling and they essentially 00;11;39;21 - 00;11;51;01 Unknown said, listen, there are 32, personality types, and you have a combination of, of most of them. But when they give you this and I don't want to get a personality test, it's just strengths test. 00;11;51;01 - 00;11;52;06 Unknown Okay. They give you your top 00;11;52;06 - 00;11;53;21 Unknown five right. It's similar 00;11;53;21 - 00;12;12;26 Unknown but not the same because they're they're just focusing on this isn't your personality but these are your strengths. This is this is how you show up to the world. And so I took she she in in DPT education gave this to all the first year students in groups. And then the goal was to see where your strengths were. 00;12;12;28 - 00;12;13;22 Unknown But to be honest 00;12;13;22 - 00;12;15;07 Unknown group and with that right 00;12;15;07 - 00;12;29;21 Unknown because they saw it. Right. So when you got your results back, they probably weren't a shock to you. Like I got, you know, communication, ideation, futuristic right. Woo I want people to like me. So my five weren't a shock. But it was cool to like read the explanations. 00;12;29;21 - 00;12;31;06 Unknown Where the magic came 00;12;31;06 - 00;12;36;21 Unknown for me is I did it with a small group of people I was working with when when they would present theirs to me. 00;12;36;29 - 00;12;38;06 Unknown You were like, I was like, 00;12;38;06 - 00;12;41;21 Unknown wait a minute, you person who? You like that? 00;12;41;21 - 00;12;43;06 Unknown And they were like, yes, but I'm 00;12;43;06 - 00;12;56;21 Unknown like, oh my gosh. So like the example I've used before was in the, in the, in the, the context of what I was doing. I was like in charge of the group and we had spreadsheet things, tasks that needed to be done. 00;12;56;26 - 00;12;58;21 Unknown Okay. And I don't like taking them off and 00;12;58;21 - 00;13;01;23 Unknown I don't like them. I don't like doing organization spreadsheet 00;13;01;23 - 00;13;03;07 Unknown things with things, but 00;13;03;07 - 00;13;17;12 Unknown I wasn't giving it to one of the girls on my team because I have a woo personality, which means I want you to. I need you to like me. Like I need you. So I wasn't giving her the task because to me, it seemed like a punishment. 00;13;17;19 - 00;13;34;22 Unknown Spreadsheets. Gotcha. Meanwhile, when she shared her results, she's like, I love organizational tasks. So here I'm slowing the entire team down because I'm just not giving her a task. Meanwhile, she's sitting there going, I really wish I could have more spreadsheet stuff. So what I'm getting at was it was cool to see my strengths. 00;13;34;22 - 00;13;36;06 Unknown The group work, but the 00;13;36;06 - 00;13;40;02 Unknown group and like, oh, we are, you know, we are not the same here. 00;13;40;05 - 00;13;55;21 Unknown And then how can you use our different strengths to actually be better than you would as a bunch of individuals? And that was sort of a mind blow. And I wish I had I wish Megan was there when I was a first year student to do this, because I think it it would have solved a lot of things in clinic because you're a pet and I'm a pet, so we're the same, 00;13;55;21 - 00;13;57;06 Unknown but we're not. 00;13;57;06 - 00;14;15;15 Unknown We have different strengths and likes and things that we, you know, want to stay. We avoid. Right. And you know, the easiest layup one for me was whenever I was in any, any college or in high school when there was a group project, I was like, okay, I don't really want to write the thing, but when it's time to present, like, I'm your guy. 00;14;15;15 - 00;14;22;22 Unknown Meanwhile, I just assumed everybody was the same way. Meanwhile, the most of my group was like, I will do anything you want to do, but I don't want to present it. And 00;14;22;22 - 00;14;24;07 Unknown I was like, oh, we could, we could. 00;14;24;07 - 00;14;29;29 Unknown It's great. We could really be a powerful duo, right? Because you're going to be happy. I'm going to be happy in the outcome is going to be the best. 00;14;29;29 - 00;14;38;22 Unknown So yeah, I think you're right. I think I did learn more about learning and myself probably in, in school then maybe like some of the content. Right. But 00;14;38;22 - 00;14;39;22 Unknown that's I don't know about 00;14;39;22 - 00;14;40;22 Unknown that. Well that's the deal, right. 00;14;40;22 - 00;14;42;06 Unknown Lifelong learner. So if I learn 00;14;42;06 - 00;14;46;02 Unknown about learning then I can unlock, you know, anything I want or anything I'm worth. 00;14;46;02 - 00;14;54;21 Unknown I'm going to put, effort towards, let's let's change gears a little bit. You pose an interesting question about whether text should be clear and precise or keywords, 00;14;54;21 - 00;14;56;06 Unknown but. Right. You mentioned that 00;14;56;06 - 00;14;58;21 Unknown whole bolding or whether you need to make them do a little bit of wraps, 00;14;58;21 - 00;15;00;08 Unknown help 00;15;00;08 - 00;15;05;15 Unknown us understand how that applies to teaching musculoskeletal and differential diagnosis. 00;15;05;17 - 00;15;18;22 Unknown Like we touched on it, where it's like, well, if I if you give it to me for free, I don't really value it. But if I have to burn a few calories, I probably understand I'm more invested delight. I mean, that's sort of like the overall idea. 00;15;18;22 - 00;15;22;02 Unknown Yeah. I you know, the biggest thing is that they have to work. 00;15;22;02 - 00;15;43;22 Unknown And so in terms of, the make it stick principles and trying to get them to learn the content, you have to make them work harder. So in musculoskeletal or in differential diagnosis, then, the pattern would be to try and build that up to that objective so that they can work without you 00;15;43;22 - 00;15;45;07 Unknown and some influence. Right, 00;15;45;07 - 00;15;47;11 Unknown or comments or feedback. 00;15;47;11 - 00;15;57;21 Unknown And so when you think about musculoskeletal and specific to that point, then we often think, you know, we want immediate feedback, right. That's going to work. And actually 00;15;57;21 - 00;15;59;06 Unknown not really for so for 00;15;59;06 - 00;16;07;13 Unknown learning it's delayed feedback. So if you think about musculoskeletal I'm doing joint mobilization. You're the students. You know, you were like, am I doing this right? 00;16;07;13 - 00;16;12;08 Unknown I don't feel anything. You don't want to go rushing up as an 00;16;12;08 - 00;16;19;08 Unknown educator because then they're never gonna want to do this. Then you then you have to provide that forever or right. They're not going to learn it right? Because you do the output. 00;16;19;08 - 00;16;26;22 Unknown Oh, okay, I got it. You're correcting the problem. And what you should do instead is let them solve that complex problem. 00;16;26;24 - 00;16;27;22 Unknown Right. Which 00;16;27;22 - 00;16;28;22 Unknown forces learning. I 00;16;28;22 - 00;16;29;22 Unknown saw said that's 00;16;29;22 - 00;16;30;22 Unknown frustrating. Right. 00;16;30;22 - 00;16;31;22 Unknown And they're not used to 00;16;31;22 - 00;16;33;07 Unknown it or because I'm used to I got this 00;16;33;07 - 00;16;35;07 Unknown wrong. Show me how I can get it right next time. 00;16;35;07 - 00;16;47;20 Unknown Exactly, exactly. So they're going to be frustrated. But if you teach them about learning very early on and continuously, then they can accept, okay, this is why I'm going to learn it better if I do this. 00;16;47;22 - 00;16;48;22 Unknown Yeah. And 00;16;48;22 - 00;16;50;07 Unknown wait for that. That's 00;16;50;07 - 00;17;01;28 Unknown scalable. I saw I saw statistically every day and I might mess up the numbers. But the idea was it takes it takes people around 200 repetitions to really master something. Unless 00;17;01;28 - 00;17;21;10 Unknown the thing that you're trying to master is done in play. And then it takes 20 repetitions and the idea there is if you go through really formally, right, like you will do this, then you will do like all of a sudden I sort of put it in all these different contexts, explaining an exercise to someone instead of letting them sort of giving you the outline, giving them the end goal in the beginning and saying, you know, play 00;17;21;10 - 00;17;34;16 Unknown it, figure it out, figure out how not to do it right. And I was just amazed by that because I'm like, wow, you're saving 90% of effort to get to the same result if you can make it play. And making a play is simple, but not easy, but apparently worth it, 00;17;34;16 - 00;17;39;16 Unknown right? Well, if we think of the contrast, though of the Eminem and the poster, 00;17;39;16 - 00;17;39;29 Unknown right? 00;17;39;29 - 00;17;41;01 Unknown Ideally then what you 00;17;41;01 - 00;17;44;16 Unknown would do is you would have that student create a rap, 00;17;44;16 - 00;17;51;01 Unknown right? Right, right, right, right. As opposed to I doing it for you. Right? You know I do that. Yeah. I see what you mean. 00;17;51;01 - 00;17;56;16 Unknown Yeah. You know, let them struggle a little bit. But then also the creativity part has to have them do a skit right 00;17;56;16 - 00;17;58;01 Unknown now, something that allows 00;17;58;01 - 00;17;59;16 Unknown them to creativity. 00;17;59;16 - 00;18;04;02 Unknown Because that's a beautiful part of the science of the science of healing and the art of 00;18;04;02 - 00;18;05;17 Unknown caring. Right. It's an art 00;18;05;17 - 00;18;07;02 Unknown and it's a science, I love that. 00;18;07;02 - 00;18;08;02 Unknown Yeah. I think you have 00;18;08;02 - 00;18;09;02 Unknown gone back to that 00;18;09;02 - 00;18;10;17 Unknown saying it's a good it's a good 00;18;10;17 - 00;18;12;02 Unknown mix. Right. 00;18;12;02 - 00;18;21;20 Unknown What was the last thing I went? Oh, in terms of, you know, your role as an author, you've authored papers, monographs, textbooks on differential diagnosis and education. 00;18;21;22 - 00;18;34;02 Unknown How is your experience in writing for the profession, help shape your approach to teaching? And what role do you think written resources play in really solidifying the learning experience for not only students, but clinicians to, 00;18;34;02 - 00;18;43;16 Unknown well, I think the biggest thing with, with writing is you get better at writing, but then when you're writing the content, you know, have to know the content better 00;18;43;16 - 00;18;45;01 Unknown and you're editing as you go, 00;18;45;01 - 00;18;45;14 Unknown you. 00;18;45;14 - 00;18;52;26 Unknown Absolutely right. Editing and save time, right? Absolutely. So I think, you know, that that, 00;18;52;26 - 00;19;08;24 Unknown that writing, whether it's a monograph or the textbook and, we're getting ready to do the monograph for primary care. So that's going to come out pretty soon, too. So it's kind of neat to kind of build that. I think you have to do that in our profession. 00;19;08;27 - 00;19;29;12 Unknown I do find and we kind of chatted a little bit about this loosely before we went on the air is the really that, art of reading is kind of going by the wayside. Yeah. So, I think you have to put it in a picture format. And that's why I think the models are another type of approach to sort of build that case in terms of differential AI. 00;19;29;15 - 00;19;33;11 Unknown But, you have to put the text in there to make it make sense. 00;19;33;11 - 00;19;35;11 Unknown Right? Person. The 00;19;35;11 - 00;19;36;21 Unknown it's a complicated, 00;19;36;21 - 00;19;37;29 Unknown question. 00;19;37;29 - 00;19;40;14 Unknown It's a, it's a, it's a dance. It's a give and take. 00;19;40;14 - 00;19;41;28 Unknown It is there was interesting 00;19;41;28 - 00;19;44;18 Unknown research done when 00;19;44;18 - 00;19;48;25 Unknown journalism went online. So this was the Washington Post. I believe someone will 00;19;48;25 - 00;19;50;10 Unknown correct me. Okay. And there were 00;19;50;10 - 00;19;53;21 Unknown writers at the Washington Post, and the quote that came to mind was, 00;19;53;21 - 00;19;59;04 Unknown it's hard to convince someone that something isn't true if their livelihood depends on it being true. 00;19;59;04 - 00;19;59;10 Unknown Right. 00;19;59;10 - 00;20;01;10 Unknown So this was the idea smoking's bad for 00;20;01;10 - 00;20;11;25 Unknown you, right? If you work. Right. So these these men were writers for the Washington Post, and their goal was to write well and write long. So, I wrote it. Would you write this week? I wrote a 10,000 word article. I wrote $15,000 00;20;11;25 - 00;20;12;25 Unknown Girl. Therefore 00;20;12;25 - 00;20;14;09 Unknown I am 33% better. 00;20;14;09 - 00;20;15;24 Unknown When journalism went online, 00;20;15;24 - 00;20;23;18 Unknown they were able to objectively measure how far down an article people went, and with software they could see where their eye tracking went. 00;20;23;18 - 00;20;42;16 Unknown Yeah, where do you guys go? And they found that, if you wrote 10,000 words or 15,000 words, they were reading the first 3000. And when you write in journalism, you get what's called the inverted pyramid, which is the important bottom line up front, the important stuff. First I got it. Good. I'm out. So then they realized that longer and more dense wasn't better. 00;20;42;16 - 00;20;54;23 Unknown So they changed their writing style, and the writing style became one of the books out there was written by, these two writers who teamed up and they started, two companies. One was Politico and one was Axios. 00;20;54;23 - 00;20;56;08 Unknown Okay. And they started this 00;20;56;08 - 00;21;03;10 Unknown this format was called Smart Brevity, which is like, how do I give you enough put a little color in there and make it, you know, make it palatable. 00;21;03;12 - 00;21;04;25 Unknown Little spoonful of sugar makes the 00;21;04;25 - 00;21;20;10 Unknown medicine go down. But they realized that more wasn't better. Better was better. And it wasn't just words. It also was could be in pictures. And that's where it's like images, pictures, sound, video. These things have not changed from Hieroglyphics to Instagram Reels. 00;21;20;10 - 00;21;21;24 Unknown These are similar but not the same. 00;21;21;24 - 00;21;31;24 Unknown And being able to switch between the modes because you know how people learn different depending on the situation and the learner and all those different criteria. 00;21;31;28 - 00;21;34;24 Unknown Yeah, absolutely. That's that's a that's a very cool story. 00;21;34;24 - 00;21;36;09 Unknown Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And 00;21;36;09 - 00;21;42;24 Unknown that's all I think, you know, the editing the the writing. It's I think it's going to evolve as we kind of mentioned 00;21;42;24 - 00;21;47;08 Unknown before, you know, there's a great creator. His name is Chris Doe and he says he has a he has a studio. 00;21;47;08 - 00;22;05;02 Unknown He's a graphic designer, video editor. He's sort of a media person and he's not really in any one vein. He works with clients. So he steps out of this one of a comfort zones comforts media. And in his studio he said, I quite literally have the room divided in half, and on one side I have a table where you are not allowed to put an iPad or computer. 00;22;05;02 - 00;22;07;25 Unknown Ever off limits. He calls this his analog side of the room. 00;22;07;25 - 00;22;09;10 Unknown Okay, where it has to be paper, 00;22;09;10 - 00;22;15;17 Unknown pen, pencil. You know, dry erase board is okay on the left. And he said, I always begin there. 00;22;15;17 - 00;22;21;21 Unknown So whenever I work for the video project or a podcast, it starts with writing. It starts with, okay, who is this person? 00;22;21;21 - 00;22;42;15 Unknown What's the goal? And a journalism professor, really taught me that. He said, you you might walk into an interview completely unprepared for this, but I said, you're armed. And he's like, you're armed with who? What? Where, when, why, how? And there's infinite variations of those. And your job isn't to ask the perfect question in the perfect order. 00;22;42;15 - 00;22;56;18 Unknown You don't have to write right, because the finished product is later. But he said, you can just your job is to just peel the onion, just get a little bit closer, just get a little bit closer to center, and realize that peeling the onion is actually the exercise, because there's nothing in the middle of the onion at all. 00;22;56;25 - 00;22;58;03 Unknown The goal is peeling the 00;22;58;03 - 00;23;00;19 Unknown onion, and the exercise is is the actual thing you're 00;23;00;19 - 00;23;02;04 Unknown doing rolling it, unraveling. 00;23;02;04 - 00;23;07;04 Unknown And he added, if you try to cheat and get to the middle too fast and you cut the onion out when you cry, there's no 00;23;07;04 - 00;23;08;04 Unknown there's no good outcome when you try 00;23;08;04 - 00;23;09;04 Unknown to skip steps. 00;23;09;04 - 00;23;10;19 Unknown That's a great, last thing, 00;23;10;19 - 00;23;15;23 Unknown last thing to do on these episodes here is we recorded, amped conference 2024 is a parting shot. 00;23;15;29 - 00;23;25;04 Unknown What's what's something you want to leave with the audience on some of the topics that we talked about, any, like any mic drop moment, soapbox statement, just an idea you want to repeat or anything new. 00;23;25;04 - 00;23;36;14 Unknown You know, I think the, the make it stick principle and the idea of that, that it's, it's really interesting. One person in the crowd is actually the daughter of the author of the book. 00;23;36;18 - 00;23;40;03 Unknown Make it stick. Make it stick. Yeah. Chip and Dan, he's 00;23;40;03 - 00;23;46;03 Unknown really Daniel McDaniel. Oh, okay. Greta McDaniel at Emory University really ran into her. 00;23;46;03 - 00;23;56;18 Unknown So it was just a cool thing to see her. And she said, you're doing a great job of bringing forward all these principles from this book. My dad, I'm texting with my dad as to 00;23;56;18 - 00;23;56;28 Unknown why. 00;23;56;28 - 00;23;58;03 Unknown Audience. It's like, 00;23;58;03 - 00;23;59;18 Unknown it's such a small world. 00;23;59;18 - 00;24;02;20 Unknown It is a small world, man. I read that book. It was right. The Heath brothers, right? 00;24;02;20 - 00;24;04;05 Unknown No, no, make it stick, make it stick. 00;24;04;05 - 00;24;10;10 Unknown Okay. Maybe it's there. Okay. But what was the idea of that one? Make it stick? Because there's a book from Chip and Dan Heath. I think it was called Make It Stick. 00;24;10;10 - 00;24;11;19 Unknown Was the idea of that with McDaniels. 00;24;11;19 - 00;24;20;19 Unknown So for this book, it's all about learning. It's the same principles that we're talking about this the the actual, you know, bolding in making the font red. 00;24;20;19 - 00;24;28;04 Unknown Yeah, it comes from that book. And so it's not me saying that. Right. Authors. Yeah. And her dad. Yeah. It's it's like the, the coolest 00;24;28;04 - 00;24;28;27 Unknown thing in the world. 00;24;28;27 - 00;24;43;18 Unknown So I think, you know, I think that's where we're going in education. That's what we're trying to do. Right? Where this a residency fellowship or entry level program is. We're trying to get better at what it is that we're doing so that we can impact our profession 00;24;43;18 - 00;24;45;03 Unknown and 00;24;45;03 - 00;24;46;18 Unknown also better treat the patient. 00;24;46;18 - 00;24;47;18 Unknown Yeah, I guess that's the 00;24;47;18 - 00;24;47;29 Unknown bottom line. 00;24;47;29 - 00;24;49;03 Unknown That's why we come to a conference. 00;24;49;03 - 00;24;50;03 Unknown Sure. We've travel 00;24;50;03 - 00;24;51;18 Unknown from Arizona to. Yeah, 00;24;51;18 - 00;24;57;18 Unknown or wherever. Yeah. It'd be a lot easier to not do this. But the goal is what what's the outcome? The the outcome is not to have gone to a conference. It's 00;24;57;18 - 00;24;59;03 Unknown to have gone to a conference. Learn 00;24;59;03 - 00;25;02;29 Unknown something that you can apply and shape, and shape the things downstream. 00;25;03;01 - 00;25;03;20 Unknown So think 00;25;03;20 - 00;25;05;05 Unknown the biggest takeaway. Yeah. That's great. 00;25;05;05 - 00;25;07;14 Unknown John. Hank, appreciate your time. Thanks so much. Thank you. Jimmy.