In this episode, Seth sits down with Jess Ellis, fellowship-trained physical therapist, former NBA health and performance leader, founder of Rehab Code, and consultant for professional athletes.
Jess shares his career path from early burnout in high-volume physical therapy to mentorship with Tim Fearon, fellowship training, EXOS, the Portland Trail Blazers, the New York Knicks, and his current work in mentorship, consulting, and concierge care.
The conversation explores the realities of working in professional sports, including the pressure of return-to-play decisions, reduced clinical autonomy, team politics, athlete relationships, and the lifestyle tradeoffs that come with elite sport. Jess also discusses his PhD work on athlete buy-in with wearable technology and force plate testing, raising important questions about trust, data, ethics, and shared decision-making.
This episode also gets into the deeper professional questions many PTs face: Are you actually getting better? Are you pursuing mastery or professional FOMO? Are you being clinically honest with yourself and your patients? And are you relying on theory, or producing meaningful change?
A sharp, candid conversation for clinicians interested in OMPT, sports rehab, mentorship, career development, and pragmatic clinical reasoning.
Chapters:
00:00 — Welcome and Jess Ellis intro
01:34 — Burnout, mentorship, and fellowship training
03:00 — EXOS, NBA roles, and Rehab Code
06:23 — Career growth and owning your opportunities
09:11 — OMPT in pro sports
11:01 — Imaging, structure, and pathomechanics
12:55 — Why fellowship changed Jess’s reasoning
14:54 — The reality of working in pro sports
17:01 — Return-to-play pressure
18:08 — Leadership, politics, and athlete trust
20:10 — Lifers, burnout, and leaving sport
23:43 — Athlete data, wearables, and Jess’s PhD
27:50 — Clinical bias and shared decision-making
30:00 — Pain science communication problems
31:43 — Mentorship and PT career paths
34:15 — Professional FOMO vs mastery
35:54 — Clinical honesty and getting better
37:47 — Pragmatism, listening, and results
40:11 — Where to find Jess Ellis
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 all right jess ellis thanks for joining us
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 today where are you uh coming from right
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 now i am not in our beautiful state
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 of arizona i am in sacramento right now
00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 what are you doing in sacramento just
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 enjoying a little bit of sunshine getting
00:00:21 --> 00:00:24 out avoiding the hundred and seven degree
00:00:24 --> 00:00:25 heat that you're feeling right now
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 Yeah, it's a plus it's humid now.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:31 Like we're in the middle of monsoon
00:00:31 --> 00:00:32 season.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:34 So it's like, a hundred and five plus,
00:00:35 --> 00:00:36 sixty percent humidity.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:36 So,
00:00:36 --> 00:00:39 but the rest of the country is kind
00:00:39 --> 00:00:39 of like that too.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41 I was in Chicago a couple of weeks
00:00:41 --> 00:00:41 ago.
00:00:42 --> 00:00:42 It's rough.
00:00:45 --> 00:00:46 It is, but yeah, it's been,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:48 it's pretty good right now.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:49 It's ninety eight.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 Um, yeah, it's been good.
00:00:53 --> 00:00:54 So I'll be back in Phoenix in two
00:00:55 --> 00:00:56 days.
00:00:57 --> 00:00:57 Yeah.
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 so you know for those of you who
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 don't know jess i think i could i
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04 could give you a little bit of an
00:01:04 --> 00:01:06 intro jess but do you want to maybe
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 introduce yourself and maybe kind of after
00:01:10 --> 00:01:11 that fold into what you're doing these
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 days yeah so my name is jess ellis
00:01:16 --> 00:01:18 uh originally from north dakota went to
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 school at university of north dakota um
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 decided I couldn't deal with cold anymore.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 So I decided to head south with my
00:01:27 --> 00:01:27 wife.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:29 We relocated to Phoenix,
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 worked at a corporate PT for a while
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34 called Physiotherapy Associates.
00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 After two and a half years and thirty
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 patients per day with paper charts,
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 I was like, I can't do this.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 This is not what I signed up for.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:46 And
00:01:48 --> 00:01:49 I connected with somebody that you know
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 very well, Tim Farron,
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 who basically saved my career.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:56 Instead of going back to med school,
00:01:57 --> 00:01:58 I just shadowed him and said,
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 that's a completely different way of
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 practice that I now can achieve.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:04 You've exposed me to something different.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 So switched practices,
00:02:08 --> 00:02:09 went to a private practice,
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 cut my patient volume in half.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 uh hung out with tim every opportunity i
00:02:15 --> 00:02:16 could went through the fellowship through
00:02:16 --> 00:02:19 evidence in motion just like you did um
00:02:19 --> 00:02:22 and then really refined my skill and then
00:02:22 --> 00:02:26 after six years i was really trying to
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 get into a company called exos which is
00:02:29 --> 00:02:30 a human performance company that's
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 headquartered in phoenix interviewed for
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 ten different jobs didn't get past the
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 first round finally on the eleventh try
00:02:37 --> 00:02:37 they gave me this
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 substitute hey go to china and work for
00:02:41 --> 00:02:44 six weeks uh i quit my job on
00:02:44 --> 00:02:46 the spot to do it didn't have anything
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 on the on the way back uh but
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 it gave me access to exos um spin
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 it a year later i was director of
00:02:53 --> 00:02:57 pt for the company um from there um
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 that got me opportunities in pro sport
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 I got into the Portland Trailblazers as
00:03:03 --> 00:03:05 director of player health and performance.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:07 And then I followed that up with a
00:03:07 --> 00:03:09 VP of health for the Knicks for the
00:03:09 --> 00:03:10 medical department.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 now i'm back in scottsdale i got a
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 six and eight year old son i want
00:03:16 --> 00:03:18 them to know who their father is and
00:03:18 --> 00:03:21 uh i've refined my practice to a cash
00:03:21 --> 00:03:24 base i have a kind of company called
00:03:24 --> 00:03:27 rehab code that teaches mentor basically
00:03:27 --> 00:03:31 mentorship and sports rehab um and i do
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 some consultation it's called confirmed
00:03:34 --> 00:03:37 which is a medical management company for
00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 professional athletes so that's
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 a very quick synopsis of the journey.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:46 But I will tell you, Seth,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:47 I went from
00:03:48 --> 00:03:50 seeing just a bunch of reps and being
00:03:50 --> 00:03:55 a shitty pt to then refinement and become
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 the fellow become the orthopedic manual
00:03:57 --> 00:04:00 therapist with test retest maitland
00:04:00 --> 00:04:03 concepts etc to then go into a human
00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 performance company that looked at
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 movement and everything else and
00:04:07 --> 00:04:09 integration with different disciplines to
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 then professional sports where i dabbled
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 in isokinetics and physics
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 and and a lot of the technology side
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 so I'm just somebody that's got a general
00:04:22 --> 00:04:27 span of many things yeah I mean I
00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 mean there's so many different like
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 threads that could pull on there but give
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 me kind of a overview like what's what's
00:04:33 --> 00:04:35 a day in the life of just like
00:04:35 --> 00:04:35 these days
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 Well, you know, with a con ed company,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 you really have to there's there's a lot
00:04:42 --> 00:04:46 of competition and people want to know who
00:04:46 --> 00:04:47 they're learning from.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:52 So rehab code requires a lot of stuff
00:04:52 --> 00:04:53 I've never done before.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:55 I've been on the pro setting for a
00:04:55 --> 00:04:58 decade to now having to look at how
00:04:59 --> 00:05:00 do I write a newsletter?
00:05:00 --> 00:05:03 how do i create a hook for a
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 reel that will catch your squirrel brain
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 of attention span of two seconds how do
00:05:08 --> 00:05:12 i catch it to own it so that's
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 where i'm at right now is creating content
00:05:15 --> 00:05:17 trying to provide value
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 And then again, consulting,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:23 working with individuals that have
00:05:23 --> 00:05:24 complicated cases,
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 having the ability to look at technology
00:05:28 --> 00:05:28 and data,
00:05:29 --> 00:05:30 but have been in the trenches long enough
00:05:30 --> 00:05:34 to know the clinical side and playing both
00:05:34 --> 00:05:38 worlds of the scientist and the artist
00:05:38 --> 00:05:39 that it's really hard to achieve.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:41 Yeah, I mean,
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 I guess one of the reasons I asked
00:05:43 --> 00:05:44 is it seems like you have a lot
00:05:45 --> 00:05:46 of different hats and things that you're
00:05:46 --> 00:05:47 doing during the day.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:50 But I think a lot of people maybe
00:05:50 --> 00:05:50 that are listening to this,
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 maybe newer grads or early on in their
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 career are kind of like you,
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 where you kind of get in that little
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 wheel and you can't see maybe a future,
00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 kind of like what you've created that's
00:06:04 --> 00:06:05 for yourself,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 where you have all these little different
00:06:07 --> 00:06:07 things.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 There's some variety to your day and you
00:06:09 --> 00:06:10 have a lot of control over it.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 Was that something you did intentionally?
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 Dude, I have no clue.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 I was so much on the front end,
00:06:17 --> 00:06:21 just grinding and seeing patients to the
00:06:21 --> 00:06:22 point of burnout.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:25 So for me to step back and be
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 seventeen years in my career to say,
00:06:28 --> 00:06:28 all right,
00:06:29 --> 00:06:31 For ninety nine dollars,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 I'll give you the blueprint to get where
00:06:33 --> 00:06:33 I'm at.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 A lot of it was blood, sweat, tears,
00:06:38 --> 00:06:39 frustrations.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:41 Oh, yeah.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 I even I did a Ph.D.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 during covid and having two kids while
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 managing an NBA team.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 So I forgot about the Ph.D.. Yeah.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 So that in itself,
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 I just think for one,
00:06:56 --> 00:06:58 One piece of advice is sometimes we can
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 write all the goals in the world,
00:07:00 --> 00:07:01 the what ifs,
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 what could possibly be the best thing
00:07:03 --> 00:07:03 ever.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:05 But I guarantee you,
00:07:05 --> 00:07:06 four years into my career,
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 the stuff that I achieved ten years later,
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 I would not even have fathomed to have
00:07:12 --> 00:07:13 written.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 So those goals are constantly evolving
00:07:16 --> 00:07:17 with opportunity.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:22 And you have to kill the opportunity at
00:07:22 --> 00:07:23 hand.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:24 That is the key.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 If you are not excelling in your current
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 role, you're wasting your time.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 If you're in the clinic and you wanna
00:07:32 --> 00:07:33 be the director,
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 and let's say that director leaves in a
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 week, your name better be on the,
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 we don't need to put this on an
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 external application to find who's the
00:07:43 --> 00:07:44 best candidate.
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 This guy is prime, ready to go.
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 Like you have to work for your next
00:07:49 --> 00:07:50 position.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 I think that's important because there's a
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 lot of victimhood in our profession.
00:07:55 --> 00:07:57 Poor me, I can't do this.
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 I can't see this type of client.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:01 I wish I could get paid more.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:03 Like all of that is just,
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 you gotta fix it, figure it out.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 Do the thing that will get you to
00:08:10 --> 00:08:11 the goal that you want.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 And I mentor a lot of people on
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 the clinical side and I mentor a lot
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 of people on the professional side of just
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 personal growth and finding their
00:08:22 --> 00:08:23 weaknesses.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:26 And, you know, Tim, again,
00:08:26 --> 00:08:28 he's a huge source for both of us,
00:08:28 --> 00:08:32 but I use the Enneagram every day with
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 my clients, with my mentees.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 You have to figure out their source of
00:08:37 --> 00:08:38 weakness,
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40 where they create their barrier to
00:08:40 --> 00:08:41 protect.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:43 Once you know that,
00:08:43 --> 00:08:44 you know how everyone ticks.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 Yeah.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:47 Yeah, I mean,
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 that kind of reminds me of the story
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 I heard from John Childs about Josh
00:08:52 --> 00:08:52 Cleland,
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 how he was bothering everyone to be
00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 involved in their research studies.
00:08:56 --> 00:08:57 And finally, he's like, man,
00:08:57 --> 00:08:58 I'll throw this guy a bone.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:00 And he just blew it out of the
00:09:00 --> 00:09:00 park.
00:09:00 --> 00:09:01 So they did it again.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 And then same thing.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:04 And he just kept doing it.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 And then now you see where, you know,
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 how successful Josh has been with his
00:09:08 --> 00:09:09 research.
00:09:09 --> 00:09:10 Yeah.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:12 So that's what you got to do.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:13 I think maybe you're,
00:09:14 --> 00:09:15 this is an interesting thing that I've
00:09:15 --> 00:09:15 always,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 maybe I don't consider myself a sports
00:09:19 --> 00:09:20 physical therapist.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 I'm kind of maybe more of a straight
00:09:22 --> 00:09:23 orthopedic PT.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 And I look at like the lineage of
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 the sports physical therapists where they
00:09:29 --> 00:09:29 kind of,
00:09:30 --> 00:09:31 I think came from their training was
00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 through physicians originally.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:35 And then you had this other kind of
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 wing of physical therapy that was OMPT.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:40 So do you,
00:09:40 --> 00:09:42 I'm interested in like you going through
00:09:42 --> 00:09:42 fellowship,
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44 did you ever feel like a black sheep
00:09:44 --> 00:09:45 in the sports PT realm?
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 Oh, dude, I was N of one.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 I think I might have been the first
00:09:54 --> 00:09:55 fellow that, you know,
00:09:56 --> 00:09:58 it was probably me and Matt Tuttle.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00 We've kind of entered the industry the
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 same time for the NBA.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:04 And I'm telling you, like,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 I learned so many hard lessons about how
00:10:09 --> 00:10:10 I practice,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:11 about how
00:10:12 --> 00:10:12 you know,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 just throw out any Maitland concept you
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 want, patient-centric approach, test,
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 retest, asterisks, et cetera,
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 to an individual I see every day.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 It can be Groundhog's Day,
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 check an asterisk and the psychology of
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 the redundancy.
00:10:31 --> 00:10:33 You have to pull back that reasoning and
00:10:33 --> 00:10:35 keep it more internal.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 You can't create that perfect model that
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 you see in a clinic where somebody pays
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 you and they're maybe seeing you two times
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 a week with a home program.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 I remember giving athletes home programs
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 when I'm seeing them the next day.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 That was very weird to me.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 And pathoanatomics, labeling,
00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 big concern there.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:04 To now, I go,
00:11:04 --> 00:11:06 I don't think we need an MRI right
00:11:06 --> 00:11:06 now.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:09 The head trainer who'd been there for
00:11:09 --> 00:11:11 like, thirty years, he pulled me aside,
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 he goes, you get the MRI.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 But whatever your reasoning,
00:11:16 --> 00:11:17 I'm going to tell you it.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 cover your ass you do it now and
00:11:20 --> 00:11:26 i'm like okay let's do it so that
00:11:26 --> 00:11:28 completely changed that structure aspect
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 and it really evolved the way i looked
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 at things because i do feel like
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 Just like with all of our practice and
00:11:36 --> 00:11:37 how we think of things,
00:11:37 --> 00:11:38 heuristics are very tied into it,
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 but we do talk about,
00:11:40 --> 00:11:42 let's not talk about pathoanatomics.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 Let's not talk about the tear, this, that,
00:11:45 --> 00:11:45 and the other,
00:11:45 --> 00:11:48 but that is one layer depth of that
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 question.
00:11:50 --> 00:11:51 If you go two, three,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 four layers in to know what that structure
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 does and how it functions and how it
00:11:57 --> 00:11:59 relates to functional movement,
00:12:00 --> 00:12:02 then you have a better understanding of
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 what movements you will have to regress
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 because of the structure so when pathology
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 is set in the joint the rules have
00:12:10 --> 00:12:12 changed and that's something we have to
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 acknowledge but i think instead of being
00:12:15 --> 00:12:17 so lazy to say let's not label it
00:12:17 --> 00:12:19 because we don't know what it is no
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 let's understand what that structure truly
00:12:21 --> 00:12:21 does
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 The hoop stress theory with menisci.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:25 What does that look like?
00:12:26 --> 00:12:28 If they have a posterior horn tear,
00:12:29 --> 00:12:30 what movements will they not like?
00:12:31 --> 00:12:32 Deep knee flexion.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:32 Okay,
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 let's minimize our lunge depth or our
00:12:34 --> 00:12:36 squat depth because of the structure.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 And I would say that that was a
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 huge piece that I learned and that's
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 pathomechanics.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:45 Yeah.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:47 And so it sounds like, I mean,
00:12:48 --> 00:12:49 do you think fellowship training,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:51 how do you think that maybe influenced how
00:12:51 --> 00:12:52 you look at patients
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 I always tell people fellowship training
00:12:57 --> 00:13:03 with concurrently working with Tim and the
00:13:03 --> 00:13:05 curriculum and, you know,
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 twenty other people showing video cases,
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 seeing how bad you really are like that,
00:13:11 --> 00:13:13 like the whole total package was the
00:13:13 --> 00:13:16 biggest and best investment I ever did for
00:13:16 --> 00:13:16 my career.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 And I'm very lucky that I chose to
00:13:22 --> 00:13:23 do it or I would be in a
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 completely different setting.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 So I think for me, it just,
00:13:30 --> 00:13:33 that depth of reasoning that you always
00:13:33 --> 00:13:34 have to use that deductive model,
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 trying to simplify complicated situations,
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 all of that really was refined.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:42 Yeah,
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 it seems like the clinical reasoning
00:13:44 --> 00:13:45 piece.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:46 I mean, you know,
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 I was on a panel once and there
00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 were a lot of sports physical therapists
00:13:51 --> 00:13:52 kind of there.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 So there was George Davies, I think,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 was there and Sue Falzone.
00:13:57 --> 00:13:57 And so all these
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 sports PTs and they do a little case,
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 you know, and this is like, again,
00:14:02 --> 00:14:03 I think of myself as a straight ortho
00:14:03 --> 00:14:04 PT.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:04 You'll see some,
00:14:05 --> 00:14:07 some local athletes and things like that,
00:14:07 --> 00:14:08 but they're talking about a high school
00:14:08 --> 00:14:10 athlete who dislocated his shoulder.
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 And there's, they're actually physicians,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 sports orthopedists in the crowd too.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:16 And they're talking about like,
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 how do you calculate the decision-making
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 as far as do you do surgery?
00:14:21 --> 00:14:22 You know, this is a
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 He's a high level athlete.
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25 He's got a scholarship on the line.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:26 It's his senior year.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 So there are all these other things around
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 this individual that you don't see.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 Like you have to consider this person's
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38 sports future and all these people around
00:14:38 --> 00:14:38 them.
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 And then at each level,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:41 I'd imagine that just gets more and more
00:14:41 --> 00:14:42 intense.
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 So what's it like treating a professional
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 athlete and balancing all these other
00:14:48 --> 00:14:48 factors?
00:14:49 --> 00:14:49 I mean,
00:14:49 --> 00:14:51 they're making tons of money for each
00:14:51 --> 00:14:52 game.
00:14:55 --> 00:14:55 It's tough.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:57 It really is.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 I think the interesting thing about sport
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 is we put this on a very nice
00:15:06 --> 00:15:10 golden pedestal of what teams have you
00:15:10 --> 00:15:10 worked for?
00:15:11 --> 00:15:11 Like,
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 it must be great being on the sidelines
00:15:13 --> 00:15:14 or being on the court.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:16 It is great.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:17 Don't get me wrong.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:18 That is a perk of it.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:21 The other piece is
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 you lose so much clinical reps.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 you lose so much clinical reasoning.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 Like that is all sacrificed.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33 If you are like a staff PT,
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 you probably have the director of rehab
00:15:36 --> 00:15:37 and then director of health and
00:15:37 --> 00:15:38 performance over you.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42 So you're not autonomous in your approach.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 You're having to go through two people to
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 decide what type of rehab.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:50 And that's frustrating when you're good,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:52 when you really wanna do the thing that
00:15:52 --> 00:15:53 you went to school for.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 so just be careful that can be a
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 facade that that that isn't the best thing
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 for a lot of us okay then you
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 put into effect the politics of sports and
00:16:08 --> 00:16:13 dealing with a player that has guaranteed
00:16:13 --> 00:16:15 money matters on the sport but nba
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 guaranteed money they can play or not play
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 they still get the same check
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 Now that changes things.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 If somebody is on a four year deal
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27 and they have ankle soreness or ankle
00:16:27 --> 00:16:28 pain,
00:16:29 --> 00:16:30 They're not going to play.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:31 I mean,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 it matters on every individual athlete and
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35 how tough they are and how much they
00:16:35 --> 00:16:35 want to push it.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:37 On their final year,
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 you see a lot of these guys play
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41 through more stuff because they want the
00:16:41 --> 00:16:42 next check.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:44 That's just human nature.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:45 I got to be on the court to
00:16:45 --> 00:16:45 play.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 If I am not on the court,
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 somebody could take my role and then I'm
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 stuck with a bad deal for the next
00:16:51 --> 00:16:52 four years.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 So you see that and that's always in
00:16:55 --> 00:16:55 the back of your mind.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 And then there's just challenges of the
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 immediacy of results on stuff that
00:17:04 --> 00:17:06 requires biological healing.
00:17:07 --> 00:17:08 Having a front office member say like,
00:17:09 --> 00:17:09 can he go tomorrow?
00:17:10 --> 00:17:10 It's like,
00:17:11 --> 00:17:12 No, he can't go tomorrow.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 Like it's still an acute phase.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:16 Like I'll talk to you in a week.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 So that's a challenge is like every day
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 feels like a week when they're out and
00:17:22 --> 00:17:23 there's pressure every time.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 And then there's always a challenge of
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 getting the prognosis right.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:31 Can this guy be back in a week?
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 a month whatever it is and the issue
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 that we have is it's not getting back
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 to pain-free walking or a sit to stand
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 or getting out of their car with less
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 pain it is playing thirty eight minutes
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 pivoting the chaos of sport how do you
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 put a prognosis on that and be accurate
00:17:51 --> 00:17:54 and that's the that's the challenge and
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 the beauty of return to play
00:17:58 --> 00:17:58 Yeah.
00:17:58 --> 00:17:59 And then, you know,
00:17:59 --> 00:18:00 you mentioned staff PTs,
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 but you've kind of had other roles in
00:18:02 --> 00:18:02 the organization.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 What are those like?
00:18:06 --> 00:18:07 The further you're away from the table,
00:18:08 --> 00:18:09 the more politics you deal with,
00:18:10 --> 00:18:12 the more management, communication,
00:18:13 --> 00:18:15 dealing with coaches,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 you start doing the thing that you love
00:18:17 --> 00:18:17 to do.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:18 And when I entered the league,
00:18:19 --> 00:18:20 I was in the top role.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22 So I kind of tell people,
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 everybody has a different way to access
00:18:24 --> 00:18:25 sport.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:27 My grind was in the outside.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 I grinded for years, years, years,
00:18:29 --> 00:18:30 then got to a leadership role from the
00:18:30 --> 00:18:31 private sector,
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 which then transferred to the NBA.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 So my grind was never in the NBA.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 So I was kind of the top guy
00:18:38 --> 00:18:39 initially.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:40 So I was already in more of that
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 supervision management role,
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 though I still worked with athletes.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 And I will probably double up on that
00:18:50 --> 00:18:51 is if you are the top person,
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 you still need to be on the ground.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:55 You still need to be working with the
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 guys because the further you're away and
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 you're in your office and they don't have
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00 a relationship with you,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02 when you need to connect and make
00:19:02 --> 00:19:03 decisions,
00:19:03 --> 00:19:04 they're just not going to trust you.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:06 Yeah.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:09 And I mean, and I remember this vivid.
00:19:09 --> 00:19:10 This is so long ago,
00:19:10 --> 00:19:12 but I remember being a student.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 I think I was my first year at
00:19:13 --> 00:19:14 CSM.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 And I see this course at CSM and
00:19:18 --> 00:19:20 it's like something about getting into pro
00:19:21 --> 00:19:21 sports.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 And I'm like every other first year PT
00:19:24 --> 00:19:24 student.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 I want to be in pro sports.
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28 So it was like a packed room.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:29 Yeah.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:32 kevin wilk todd ellen becker they're all
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 there were like three or four i can't
00:19:34 --> 00:19:35 even remember the other ones but they're
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 all maybe mike reinhold was there i think
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 they're all talking about their experience
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 and the biggest takeaway for me was like
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 this kind of this lifestyle kind of sucks
00:19:47 --> 00:19:49 Like you have you're on all the time.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:50 You're working on weekends.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:52 You're going to be away from your family.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 So they were kind of like discouraging
00:19:54 --> 00:19:55 everyone in the crowd to get involved in
00:19:56 --> 00:19:57 this.
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59 What was your experience like?
00:20:00 --> 00:20:01 Did you like it?
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03 Do you think that was right for you?
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04 I know you talked about how now that
00:20:04 --> 00:20:05 you have kids,
00:20:05 --> 00:20:06 you want to be around more.
00:20:07 --> 00:20:09 I mean, so there's a few things there.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 One is I think when you enter the
00:20:13 --> 00:20:14 league, there's two types of people.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17 They're ones that have an expiration date
00:20:17 --> 00:20:19 and they're ones that are lifers.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:20 And they're just,
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 there are some that are saying I'm in
00:20:23 --> 00:20:24 it for this amount of time and then
00:20:24 --> 00:20:25 I got to get out.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:27 And you already kind of have a sense
00:20:27 --> 00:20:28 of who those are.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 And then the lifers are just like,
00:20:32 --> 00:20:33 give me the cuffs.
00:20:34 --> 00:20:34 I'm here to the end.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 gonna have to you know bury me outside
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 of the practice facility like i'll give
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 you the grave site like this is where
00:20:42 --> 00:20:44 i'm gonna end so i think for you
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 like going into that situation now the
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 problem you have is the longer you're in
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 the setting you start to sway into
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 becoming a lifer even when people
00:20:57 --> 00:20:58 initially think i'm only going to be here
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00 for two contracts and then i'm out
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 you start to lose your confidence of what
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 can I do outside of sport?
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 And when you're in it long enough,
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 then that's all you know.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 Because it's daunting to be like, okay,
00:21:13 --> 00:21:14 what do I do now?
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 Because there's a level of arrogance that
00:21:16 --> 00:21:18 I'm not gonna go down the street and
00:21:18 --> 00:21:18 work at ATI.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 Like I'm better than that now.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:23 I worked for whatever team.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 So your options start to dwindle.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:29 let alone your clinical practice kind of
00:21:29 --> 00:21:30 sucked for multiple years because you've
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31 only worked with three guys, okay?
00:21:31 --> 00:21:35 So your confidence starts to figure out
00:21:35 --> 00:21:35 like, what could I do?
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 Well, I could maybe be a professor.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 Maybe I could do a concierge model like
00:21:41 --> 00:21:42 I'm doing.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:44 Maybe I can go into education.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46 Maybe I can sell E-STEM units.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 Those are the decisions they have to make.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:51 And they kind of tap into their network
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 to see what the next piece is.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:55 But I do think that...
00:21:57 --> 00:21:58 Um, oh,
00:21:58 --> 00:21:59 and then the other piece is you can
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 get fired and I've been fired.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 So that's another forced is, uh,
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 dynamics of, you know,
00:22:06 --> 00:22:07 making the cut or not.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 And most of the time when that happens
00:22:09 --> 00:22:10 is not so much about how good you
00:22:10 --> 00:22:10 are.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 It's did you play the political game
00:22:12 --> 00:22:14 correctly?
00:22:15 --> 00:22:15 Yeah.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:17 Yeah.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:19 So, I mean, yeah,
00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 it seems like it's like you kind of
00:22:21 --> 00:22:21 alluded to,
00:22:21 --> 00:22:24 it'd be a great role for some individuals
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 and then maybe it'd be challenging one for
00:22:27 --> 00:22:27 other PTs.
00:22:30 --> 00:22:31 I got to ask, I mean,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:32 what are your thoughts seeing the Knicks
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 win the championship this year?
00:22:36 --> 00:22:37 I love everyone that I work for,
00:22:38 --> 00:22:39 especially the health and performance
00:22:39 --> 00:22:40 guys.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 I was just on the call with the
00:22:42 --> 00:22:43 head trainer
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 uh anthony and just we just talked it
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 up i'm very happy for all of them
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 um clearly it sucks i kind of i
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 gave the analogy of is like you know
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 you broke up with your girl and you
00:22:58 --> 00:22:59 don't really know anything about her so
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 now she's your ex and then one day
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 you like go on ig and you see
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07 her and you're like oh miss america she's
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 way hot she's got a nice job she's
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 got a better boyfriend than me and you're
00:23:12 --> 00:23:13 just kind of like
00:23:13 --> 00:23:14 Huh?
00:23:15 --> 00:23:15 Good for her.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:19 No,
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 but it would have been beautiful to have
00:23:22 --> 00:23:22 that ring.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 But I'm telling you, life's a journey.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:29 And I've gained more insight in two years
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 after the Knicks than I've done in twenty.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:34 Yeah.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:35 Yeah.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:36 And so, you know,
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 I don't I think this was maybe during
00:23:38 --> 00:23:39 if I'm correct.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:40 I mean, you decided to do a Ph.D.
00:23:40 --> 00:23:41 just on the side.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:42 Yeah.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:43 Tell me about that.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:45 Why did you decide to do that?
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48 So I've always wanted to.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 That was one of the things I had
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 written on my list of what I got
00:23:52 --> 00:23:53 to, you know.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:57 Accomplish from my bucket list and.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:00 While I was in the league,
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 I was having issues with getting players
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 to commit doing certain things like a
00:24:06 --> 00:24:07 force plate effort.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 I want to see how well you jump.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:10 And they were doing half-assed jumps.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 Well, that data doesn't work.
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14 And I had other guys refusing.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 I don't want to wear this technology,
00:24:17 --> 00:24:18 this wearable.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 I don't want you to have my data.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22 So I'm starting to have these initial
00:24:23 --> 00:24:23 conversations.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 And then I'm looking and saying,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:27 nobody's talking about this.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:30 And there's nothing on research with this.
00:24:30 --> 00:24:31 So I decided,
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 though I've never had read a qualitative
00:24:35 --> 00:24:36 study, maybe one or two,
00:24:37 --> 00:24:38 I decided I'm going to do a qualitative
00:24:38 --> 00:24:39 study.
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 I'm going to interview fifteen MBA guys.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 I'm going to ask questions about what
00:24:45 --> 00:24:47 their beliefs are behind technology.
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 Do they think the data is being used
00:24:50 --> 00:24:52 for or against them?
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54 What are ways that would be better
00:24:54 --> 00:24:57 strategies to roll out new technology that
00:24:57 --> 00:24:58 you get better buy in?
00:24:59 --> 00:25:01 And it was a really good study.
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 It really explored the human psychology
00:25:04 --> 00:25:05 of, in essence,
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 the employer and the employee and the
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11 ethical decisions behind that.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14 And I just, I always talk about it.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 If you had an employer and said, hey,
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 you're not, you're your own boss.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:19 Let's say you give it to one of
00:25:19 --> 00:25:20 your employees.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:20 Hey,
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 I'm going to give you this and we're
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 going to track how you sleep because we
00:25:26 --> 00:25:26 want you to be efficient.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:28 We want you to be the best you
00:25:28 --> 00:25:31 can be as a PT.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33 And the employee is going to grab the
00:25:33 --> 00:25:33 watch.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:36 You're going to track me outside of work.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:37 You're going to see how much I sleep.
00:25:38 --> 00:25:39 And then you're going to dictate my
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 performance off that.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:43 And then in a month,
00:25:43 --> 00:25:44 let's say her numbers are low.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 She's not seen as many clients.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 And you say,
00:25:48 --> 00:25:49 your score's down too with sleep.
00:25:50 --> 00:25:51 You're hitting only sixty eights.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54 So can we get better at sleeping?
00:25:54 --> 00:25:55 And she's like, what?
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 Why does that matter?
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 And that kind of hit me right square
00:26:03 --> 00:26:04 between the eyes of like,
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06 I would never want that happen to me
00:26:07 --> 00:26:08 if my employer told me to do that.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 Why the hell do I think that a
00:26:10 --> 00:26:10 player would?
00:26:11 --> 00:26:13 Yeah.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:13 Yeah.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:13 Yeah.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:14 And they're, you know,
00:26:14 --> 00:26:15 sometimes you forget watching them,
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17 you know, they're in their twenties.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:17 Sure.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:19 They like to go out every once in
00:26:19 --> 00:26:20 a while and you don't want someone getting
00:26:20 --> 00:26:21 on your case about that.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 I don't think we instinctively put them as
00:26:25 --> 00:26:26 a lab rat,
00:26:26 --> 00:26:30 but we're so caught up in producing the
00:26:30 --> 00:26:31 best product,
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 producing the best system that they become
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 the lab rat because you throw all these
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 different things to make human performance
00:26:39 --> 00:26:40 better.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:43 But there's never one time that we ask
00:26:43 --> 00:26:44 the athlete to say, what do you think?
00:26:45 --> 00:26:45 You want to do this?
00:26:45 --> 00:26:46 Does this make sense?
00:26:47 --> 00:26:53 And it's a very one-sided process.
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 And that's why you see all the empirical
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 data on the accuracy, the reliability,
00:26:59 --> 00:27:01 the validity of all these devices.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:06 And there's this much research on player
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 buy-in and figuring out how to get them
00:27:08 --> 00:27:09 to buy into using that.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:13 I mean,
00:27:13 --> 00:27:15 maybe that's a good segue to this is
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 that, you know, as manual therapists,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:18 sometimes we
00:27:19 --> 00:27:22 don't want to do the MRIs or collect
00:27:22 --> 00:27:26 the data as much because we're afraid of
00:27:26 --> 00:27:27 the decisions that are going to come as
00:27:27 --> 00:27:28 a result of that.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:31 Where do you think that's beneficial?
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 Where do you think maybe that is warranted
00:27:34 --> 00:27:35 a little bit?
00:27:35 --> 00:27:36 What are your perspectives?
00:27:37 --> 00:27:39 I think it's just being more level-headed
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 in your reasoning and knowing that we all
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 have biases.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:44 We all have
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 different ways that we look at the
00:27:47 --> 00:27:47 problem.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 And we have to look at the lens
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 that we look at all of our problems.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:54 And then there might be one day where
00:27:54 --> 00:27:55 we,
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57 I'm going to change the lens and put
00:27:57 --> 00:27:57 this one on.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:00 Oh, way different perspective,
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01 way different look.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 So I think that's important is just
00:28:05 --> 00:28:07 knowing where our default is.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:11 and being much more willing to go that
00:28:11 --> 00:28:11 next route.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:13 And you know what I know is like,
00:28:13 --> 00:28:15 how many times do you see a client
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 when results are kind of nil that we
00:28:19 --> 00:28:19 gotta say, okay,
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 we gotta figure something out?
00:28:21 --> 00:28:23 It's either we gotta go to an image,
00:28:23 --> 00:28:24 we maybe see the doc,
00:28:24 --> 00:28:25 or the hardest one is,
00:28:27 --> 00:28:28 I don't think I'm good enough.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31 I have a colleague that is better than
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 me in this specific area of treatment.
00:28:35 --> 00:28:36 I need you to go see them.
00:28:38 --> 00:28:43 And that right there is the opposite of
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 shared decision model that we try to push.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 That's medical paternalism.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:53 Medical paternalism is biasing the way
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 that you speak to a client to own
00:28:56 --> 00:28:57 power over them.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 And that seems like a very dramatic
00:29:00 --> 00:29:00 comment.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 But if you see an MRI and you
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 tailor the language so that patient
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 doesn't have the full idea of what's going
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 on because you don't want to set fear
00:29:12 --> 00:29:13 into their beliefs.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:17 that's not patient that's not the shared
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 decision model that we need to be striving
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 for we are going back to the old
00:29:21 --> 00:29:28 antiquated medical paternalism yeah i saw
00:29:28 --> 00:29:30 a commentary about this in a physical
00:29:30 --> 00:29:31 therapy journal and actually wrote a
00:29:32 --> 00:29:33 letter to the editor about it i think
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 that is you do see this bubble up
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38 where when it comes to diagnosis so people
00:29:38 --> 00:29:38 want to say
00:29:39 --> 00:29:40 You know,
00:29:40 --> 00:29:41 maybe let's not tell them they have a
00:29:41 --> 00:29:41 hamstring tear.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 Let's say that they have a problem with
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 the muscle, just an injury, you know,
00:29:46 --> 00:29:47 or just water it down.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:49 Like, if you know what it is,
00:29:50 --> 00:29:51 you should be able to tell them and
00:29:51 --> 00:29:53 then explain it and put it in its
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 place, but don't hide things from them.
00:29:56 --> 00:29:57 I mean,
00:29:57 --> 00:29:59 that does get to the paternalism kind of
00:29:59 --> 00:30:00 side of things.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:06 And I think that ninety percent of what
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08 we do in pain science is done very
00:30:08 --> 00:30:09 poorly.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 I think if you're going to have those
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13 discussions,
00:30:13 --> 00:30:17 you better have those very refined,
00:30:18 --> 00:30:19 have practiced it enough times.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:21 Because the last thing that you want to
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23 do is give a really corny ass analogy
00:30:23 --> 00:30:26 about pain to a client who has pain.
00:30:27 --> 00:30:29 And then they're going to say,
00:30:30 --> 00:30:31 why are you treating me like I'm a
00:30:31 --> 00:30:32 third grader?
00:30:33 --> 00:30:34 Tell me what's going on.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36 And I've seen it.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 go more south than i've seen it go
00:30:40 --> 00:30:43 way worse than it actually should uh and
00:30:44 --> 00:30:45 i don't know if it's a level of
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 arrogance that we want to to give this
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 type of approach or it's just not like
00:30:52 --> 00:30:54 stepping back like is this is this common
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 sense like would i want to know this
00:30:57 --> 00:30:58 as a patient or does this just seem
00:30:58 --> 00:31:01 very off and if you can answer that
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04 then we got to step back and change
00:31:05 --> 00:31:06 yeah
00:31:06 --> 00:31:08 I think that part of what I think
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10 you do see those discussions shifting a
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 little bit lately, thankfully, and maybe,
00:31:13 --> 00:31:15 yeah.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:16 So I think maybe how we do it,
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 we got to take another look at,
00:31:18 --> 00:31:21 and to your point, it's like, you know,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:21 this,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 the whole idea behind paint science was to
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26 talk to someone and get them to understand
00:31:26 --> 00:31:26 things in a different way.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:28 And if they don't understand it,
00:31:28 --> 00:31:29 it's not working.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 So there is some tailoring I think that
00:31:32 --> 00:31:33 needs to happen there.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:34 Yeah.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:37 Do you see, I mean,
00:31:37 --> 00:31:38 you talked about mentorship.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:42 Do you see kind of common things in
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44 the physical therapist that you mentor?
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 Maybe pitfalls that they're commonly
00:31:47 --> 00:31:49 falling into or barriers?
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 I mean, from a personal development,
00:31:55 --> 00:31:57 there's just a lot of people struggling
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00 with where they're going in their career.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:01 And
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 I think there's a few different angles
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 that you can start to tailor the way
00:32:06 --> 00:32:07 that you want to approach it.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:08 One is,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 I want to be a master at my
00:32:11 --> 00:32:11 skill.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:14 So mastery is their pursuit.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17 And if I'm in the coal mine,
00:32:17 --> 00:32:19 just working on clients, like I'm happy.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:20 Okay.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:22 Then the second one is I want to
00:32:22 --> 00:32:22 educate.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:24 I want to become a teacher.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:25 Okay.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27 Now you're going to have to look at
00:32:27 --> 00:32:29 reasoning and how can you teach it from
00:32:29 --> 00:32:30 your perspective?
00:32:30 --> 00:32:31 Then there's another angle,
00:32:31 --> 00:32:34 which is I want to be a director.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:36 I want to go into leadership.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37 I want to kind of lead groups.
00:32:38 --> 00:32:38 Okay.
00:32:38 --> 00:32:41 Well, leadership specific training.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 Fourth is I want to be my own
00:32:43 --> 00:32:44 person.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:45 I want to be my own boss.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:46 I want to be an entrepreneur.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:47 I want to be able to just run
00:32:47 --> 00:32:48 a business.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:49 All right.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:50 Easy.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:51 Entrepreneurship.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 Then it's I don't like any of that,
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 but I like research and I want my
00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 name on journals and I want to maybe
00:32:59 --> 00:33:00 be in a little bit of academia,
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 maybe be in and out and build that.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:04 And then the last one is.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:07 Jess Ellis.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 No, it's consultation.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:11 It's, you know,
00:33:12 --> 00:33:14 looking at working with technology
00:33:14 --> 00:33:15 companies,
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 looking at kind of that hybrid model of
00:33:20 --> 00:33:22 Using some of these in, you know,
00:33:22 --> 00:33:24 this integration of sports technology,
00:33:25 --> 00:33:28 physical therapy, biomechanics, et cetera.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:29 There's a whole new world of that in
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30 AI.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 So I think those are your spectrums of
00:33:32 --> 00:33:33 decisions.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:35 And then whatever, you know,
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 I take that list and maybe cut it
00:33:38 --> 00:33:38 down to two.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:40 And then that's where you start to put
00:33:40 --> 00:33:41 more effort into.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:42 Hopefully in two years,
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 you're going to be closer to that goal.
00:33:48 --> 00:33:48 Yeah.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:50 I mean, that's, you know,
00:33:50 --> 00:33:50 that sounds like,
00:33:50 --> 00:33:53 do you run into issues with, well,
00:33:53 --> 00:33:54 I'm going to imagine this is part of
00:33:54 --> 00:33:56 it where physical therapy,
00:33:56 --> 00:33:57 there's maybe not that much of a,
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00 a ladder, at least from the clinic.
00:34:00 --> 00:34:01 So people get to a certain point and
00:34:01 --> 00:34:03 then is that kind of,
00:34:04 --> 00:34:04 for the most part,
00:34:04 --> 00:34:05 what you're seeing in your mentorship
00:34:05 --> 00:34:06 group?
00:34:07 --> 00:34:08 Yeah, there's,
00:34:08 --> 00:34:11 there's nowhere to go or the opportunities
00:34:11 --> 00:34:13 aren't there.
00:34:13 --> 00:34:13 Um,
00:34:15 --> 00:34:17 And I've kind of talked about this on
00:34:17 --> 00:34:19 social media and different podcasts,
00:34:19 --> 00:34:21 but like sometimes we deal with
00:34:21 --> 00:34:22 professional FOMO.
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 And I think there's usually a split in
00:34:26 --> 00:34:27 the road of like, okay,
00:34:27 --> 00:34:29 this is kind of complacency and I'm just
00:34:29 --> 00:34:30 good enough.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:32 or this treacherous angle,
00:34:32 --> 00:34:33 which is mastery.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:35 And I think a lot of them kind
00:34:35 --> 00:34:36 of get bored and say like,
00:34:36 --> 00:34:38 that just seems like too much work.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:39 I'm gonna go down this path in
00:34:39 --> 00:34:40 complacency,
00:34:40 --> 00:34:42 but they're still intellectually wanting
00:34:42 --> 00:34:43 to be challenged.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 So what you find is they start going
00:34:46 --> 00:34:48 into strength and conditioning stuff,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:53 or they start wanting to do some nutrition
00:34:54 --> 00:34:55 or this, and you're like,
00:34:55 --> 00:34:57 it's great to have that comprehensive
00:34:57 --> 00:34:57 view,
00:34:58 --> 00:35:00 But let's be good at the thing that
00:35:00 --> 00:35:01 you went to school for.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 And I think a lot of them cut
00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 it short and then they try to expand
00:35:06 --> 00:35:08 and then they're just not good at anything
00:35:09 --> 00:35:12 because they should be refining and
00:35:12 --> 00:35:15 continuing to build their skill as a PT.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:18 And the problem is then they got to
00:35:18 --> 00:35:19 look at themselves in the mirror and say,
00:35:19 --> 00:35:20 am I better?
00:35:21 --> 00:35:22 And that's a really tough question that a
00:35:22 --> 00:35:24 lot of people can't say because
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 There's a lot of psychology behind that.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30 Sunken cost fallacy.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:32 Did you do the right education?
00:35:32 --> 00:35:33 You put all this time and effort,
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 then you find out that that reasoning
00:35:35 --> 00:35:36 model actually sucks.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38 There's not many people that can say I
00:35:38 --> 00:35:39 wasted time and money because I got it
00:35:39 --> 00:35:40 wrong.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:42 They just go along with that pursuit.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 And then just being honest,
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 like clinical honesty is probably really
00:35:50 --> 00:35:51 hard for a lot of us.
00:35:53 --> 00:35:53 Right.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:54 Right.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:55 Yeah.
00:35:55 --> 00:35:57 So how does somebody know?
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 I think this is probably a tough question,
00:36:00 --> 00:36:01 but how does somebody know that they're
00:36:01 --> 00:36:01 good enough?
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04 You got to find some asshole to tell
00:36:04 --> 00:36:05 you if you are or aren't.
00:36:08 --> 00:36:09 You got to find the master.
00:36:09 --> 00:36:10 You got to find the person that says
00:36:10 --> 00:36:11 you're not there yet.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:15 Or the number one thing I say is
00:36:15 --> 00:36:17 if you're in clinical practice and you're
00:36:17 --> 00:36:18 not being
00:36:22 --> 00:36:25 If you're not being challenged and being
00:36:25 --> 00:36:28 humbled by at least one to two clients
00:36:28 --> 00:36:34 per day, you're not looking to get better.
00:36:35 --> 00:36:39 They're gonna check you and you're the one
00:36:39 --> 00:36:41 that has to receive that feedback to say,
00:36:43 --> 00:36:43 You're right.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:44 I didn't show up.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:45 I did it wrong.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:48 But a lot of times we go, well,
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 that client's a little off or, oh,
00:36:51 --> 00:36:52 we got a hypervigilant one.
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54 Or you put all the excuses in the
00:36:54 --> 00:36:55 world.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:56 When it comes down to it,
00:36:56 --> 00:36:59 did you produce the result that you needed
00:36:59 --> 00:36:59 to?
00:37:00 --> 00:37:01 Did you adapt to your client?
00:37:02 --> 00:37:04 Or are you making an excuse?
00:37:04 --> 00:37:05 That's, I think,
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 between finding that higher level mentor
00:37:10 --> 00:37:12 or just seeking to be
00:37:13 --> 00:37:15 corrected based on your patient
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17 interaction are the two ways that you find
00:37:17 --> 00:37:20 out.
00:37:20 --> 00:37:21 Yeah.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:22 Yeah, I totally agree.
00:37:22 --> 00:37:24 You see this all the time.
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27 Um, Jess, do you have, you know,
00:37:27 --> 00:37:28 we're wrapping it up here.
00:37:28 --> 00:37:31 Do you have any parting thoughts?
00:37:31 --> 00:37:31 I mean,
00:37:34 --> 00:37:35 Anything for the new grad physical
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37 therapists or the PTs that are kind of
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40 looking at fellowship training or maybe
00:37:40 --> 00:37:41 those that are getting to the end and
00:37:41 --> 00:37:42 wondering what to do?
00:37:43 --> 00:37:48 I think the more that I kind of
00:37:48 --> 00:37:49 evolved as a practitioner,
00:37:50 --> 00:37:55 I've become less idealistic in my thinking
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58 and more pragmatic.
00:37:59 --> 00:38:01 And that really transitioned.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:06 Maitland and fellowship is very aligned
00:38:06 --> 00:38:08 with the philosophy of pragmatism.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11 And who created that was William James.
00:38:11 --> 00:38:14 He's kind of the champion of that
00:38:14 --> 00:38:15 philosophical approach.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:17 They have a lot of alignment.
00:38:19 --> 00:38:20 It's very adaptable.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:24 It's very much seeking out the feedback
00:38:24 --> 00:38:25 from a client.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:28 less of you talking,
00:38:28 --> 00:38:29 more of you listening,
00:38:30 --> 00:38:33 finding ways that are going to just do
00:38:33 --> 00:38:33 the one thing,
00:38:33 --> 00:38:35 which is achieve the result.
00:38:36 --> 00:38:37 And then step back and say,
00:38:38 --> 00:38:39 we can sit and talk theory all we
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 want, but what's gonna happen in the end?
00:38:43 --> 00:38:44 Is it gonna change or is it not?
00:38:45 --> 00:38:49 And I think we kind of hide within
00:38:49 --> 00:38:49 theory.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53 We get to get into rhetorics and there's
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 a safetiness to it because you don't
00:38:55 --> 00:38:56 really have to show it.
00:38:57 --> 00:38:58 And a lot of smart people can do
00:38:58 --> 00:38:58 that,
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01 but not a lot of people can truly
00:39:01 --> 00:39:04 be the pragmatic one to get the results
00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 and not really care about what really
00:39:06 --> 00:39:07 happened.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:09 Like it was there and now,
00:39:09 --> 00:39:10 and you made the change.
00:39:11 --> 00:39:13 And you know why it happened in some
00:39:13 --> 00:39:14 capacity.
00:39:14 --> 00:39:14 We really,
00:39:14 --> 00:39:16 truly don't know what was the true extent
00:39:16 --> 00:39:17 of why it changed.
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19 We have some theory and we kind of
00:39:19 --> 00:39:19 rely on that.
00:39:20 --> 00:39:22 But you at least have a reasoning of
00:39:22 --> 00:39:24 what you think happened, good or bad.
00:39:25 --> 00:39:27 And I think that's important is just be
00:39:28 --> 00:39:30 very practical.
00:39:31 --> 00:39:33 and live in that realm and don't get
00:39:33 --> 00:39:35 caught up so much in the theory and
00:39:35 --> 00:39:36 don't get caught up so much in the
00:39:36 --> 00:39:39 social media about how people can tout
00:39:39 --> 00:39:40 about how good they are.
00:39:40 --> 00:39:40 I mean,
00:39:41 --> 00:39:42 you've got to seek the ones that actually
00:39:42 --> 00:39:44 are doing it in.
00:39:44 --> 00:39:47 And, you know, if anybody's in Tucson, I,
00:39:48 --> 00:39:50 they should be knocking on your door to
00:39:50 --> 00:39:51 see what you're doing.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 And if it's not, that's a problem.
00:39:55 --> 00:39:56 Yeah.
00:39:58 --> 00:39:59 Yeah, I think that's good advice.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:01 Jess,
00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 where can people connect with you and kind
00:40:04 --> 00:40:07 of learn more about what you're teaching
00:40:07 --> 00:40:07 these days?
00:40:08 --> 00:40:11 Easy is rehab under slash code,
00:40:11 --> 00:40:11 rehab code.
00:40:13 --> 00:40:14 I do mentorship,
00:40:15 --> 00:40:16 one-on-one group mentorship.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:18 I do a cohort called Mentorship to
00:40:18 --> 00:40:22 Mastery, which is a six-week dive.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:24 It's two to two and a half hour
00:40:25 --> 00:40:26 sessions.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:29 The beauty of the mentorship is that you
00:40:29 --> 00:40:30 bring the questions to me.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:32 So every cohort is different.
00:40:33 --> 00:40:36 Every session I have to prepare and use
00:40:36 --> 00:40:37 my experience and
00:40:38 --> 00:40:40 It's not kind of a pre-fabricated
00:40:40 --> 00:40:42 PowerPoint that I use through each cohort,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:45 which makes me stay honest throughout this
00:40:45 --> 00:40:45 process.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:49 So mentorship to mastery,
00:40:49 --> 00:40:51 I have a knee course and a shoulder
00:40:51 --> 00:40:52 neck course that I call the Schneck.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:54 And yeah,
00:40:55 --> 00:40:57 that's probably the easiest way to hit me
00:40:57 --> 00:41:00 up.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:00 Sounds good.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:01 Jess Ellis,
00:41:01 --> 00:41:02 thanks for joining us this morning.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:03 Appreciate it, Seth.